From Yahoo.com
LOS ANGELES — Porn performers will soon be given a list of recommended health care providers for their frequent sexually transmitted disease testing, and results will be fed into a new industry database, according to a porn trade group.
Free Speech Coalition Executive Director Diane Duke said Thursday her group will oversee the database as part of a new program intended to fill the gap created by the closure of Adult Industry Medical Health Care Foundation earlier this month.
"We will be able to provide a list of recommended providers to our performers and ensure they will have sensitivity to the client base that we’d be bringing to these providers," Duke said at a news conference.
Known as the AIM clinic, the shuttered San Fernando Valley facility was a preferred medical provider for many performers in the multibillion-dollar porn industry, providing a discreet environment for frequent HIV and STD tests.
The Free Speech Coalition’s program to replace AIM, known as Adult Production Health and Safety Services, won’t open a new clinic.
"Unfortunately, the FSC is not in a position to set up a medical facility or a clinic," said board member Christian Mann, who is also a general manager at Evil Angel Video. "One of the things we learned from the closure of AIM is to avoid overreaching."
Within a week, Duke said, performers will be provided a list of labs and clinics where they can get testing and have their results fed into the database.
The password-protected database allows actors and producers to track whether performers have been diagnosed with gonorrhea, chlamydia or if they are HIV positive.
The database will tell users whether an actor is available to work or not, depending on whether they have any of the sexually transmitted infections the system tracks.
The system makes an exception for HIV-positive gay performers who still work in sex scenes while using condoms.
Former Los Angeles County STD program director Dr. Gary Richwald is serving the trade group as a consultant and says the group is now reaching out to medical providers with education to ensure sex performers aren’t treated with insensitivity and hostility for their work.
"It’s not what you say, but how you say it," Richwald said about a doctor’s responsibility to advise a performer of the risks they face in porn. "We also want to provide assurance that the tests being done (at recommended medical providers) are the best tests available."
The AIM clinic was forced to close permanently earlier this month following a series of controversies.
After porn actor Derrick Burts was diagnosed HIV-positive there in December, state and local officials said the clinic failed to cooperate with their investigation into other possible infections. Burts said that instead of getting information from the clinic on how to get follow-up care, he was told to avoid media, change his phone number and leave town.
The clinic was also accused of medical privacy violations after patient information appeared on a website in the run-up to its closure.
Kink.com founder and FSC board member Peter Acworth has led the database development and said his experience thwarting hackers on his site played into developing a secure environment for the performer’s information.
The system makes an exception for HIV-positive gay performers who still work in sex scenes while using condoms.
Why? If they work with each other, HIV to HIV fine, HIV to non HIV, bad idea. If a crossover works with a HIV Gay performer, by by, same with an actress who does bi work with a HIV Gay performer, by by. Its not discrmination just common sense. I didnt see it but will gay companies finally get their talent to test, like they should have decades ago?
I have agree with Larry on this one… At the very least, the performer working with someone HIV positive should be told. But I think it’s a bad idea to let someone who is not HIV positive work with someone who is, condoms or not…
The problem is no one’s positive that they ARE positive! Evidence of this lies in the fact that there exists NO GOLD STANDARD, whatsoever, whereas one specimen reading “positive” in one lab will read “negative” in another (same exact sample in both labs) based on different ways of ascertaining what things allegedly show it to be positive. Sorry to belabor the point but we’re missing the elephant in the room.
To me, if someone tests as HIV positive, a sample should be sent to another lab for confirmation. If the same result is obtained, then either the person IS HIV positive or the sample is contaminated.
It’s not the perfect solution, but in many ways you CAN rule out technician error.
So basically it will be just like AIM with the chance of the database being leaked, but with possible hostility. Great.
@Larry Horse – Did you know that there are different strains of HIV and two infected individuals may not have the same type? The more you know.
You know Jeremy, you are ridiculous. I have been following this board for a while now. When someone stated that you knowingly be infected with HIV you said something to the effect of “now let’s not get carried away I’m not that stupid”. If HIV doesn’t exist then why not be “infected” then? Hmmmmm…
So, just as predicted, talent still pay for all the testing, plus they get to pay to be part of the database. And producers pay to get access to the database.
But the new databse will NOT have actual test results? It will just be a list of performers who currently meet the standard protocol? How will this be done. Who will have access to the actual results in order to put the performers name on the database of ‘available for work’ pefomrers?
And they talk about HIV+ performers. Are they getting tested now too. OF course any HIV+ gay performer right now has no reason to get tested and be on the database.
More holes than swill cheese.
Is it ok sor HIV+ performers to work on the straight side if they use condoms? Why isit ok for them to work in the gay industry with condoms, and not in the straight industry.
Could you guys possibly make it any easier for your detractors to rip you to shreds?
And performers, now YOU GET TO PAY to be on the database. 1000 performers at 50 bucks a pop. Not bad FSC. And all you guys here thought it was the AHF and UCLA who were after all the potential revenue from performer testing. LMAO. EXACTLY as I predicted, who would have thought? And just a new entity for AHF to file suits against.
Cindi, might it be possible to not allow this thread t become another Jermey rant that HIV doesnt exist, or whatever it is he tries to sell here.
Cindi, might it be possible to not allow this thread to become another Joe Know rant that talent paying for their own tests represents proof that the industry abuses performers, or whatever it is he tries to sell here, when IN FACT the real reason he wants producers to pay for testing is that it would make it SO MUCH EASIER for performers to be classified as employees?
Actually Joe, it’s because I’m NOT selling nor have anything to gain that leads I’m offering should be followed… But, it’s your choice, I don’t expect the status quo to radically change, but I hope that people can still make both informed and free choices about their health and in order to do that there needs to be an examination into as many things as possible… If there is no open debate, then ask yourself how you know what’s what? But I’m not here to get into all that again.
STILL waiting for that independent analysis that you promised us Michael. The one that YOU said was already complete and they are just waiting to release. LMAO
And Michael, it isnt really pre employment screening I would like to see producers pay for. It you recall, I have constanly reminded everyone that pre employment screening for HIV is illegal. It is POST EXPOSURE testing that I really want producers to pay for. And when that POST EXPOSURE testing shows a positive result then the producer pays for the treatment of exposed employees. Perfomrers are already classified as employees,so there is no problem there.
Rubikscube… you writing seems a little scrambled to me, like a shuffled rubik’s cube. I think what you’re saying is along the lines of some dissidents saying
a. HIV hasn’t been isolated, while other dissidents say it
b. Exists but hasn’t been proven to cause AIDS
(Gallo admits co-factors are needed, but this kind of news
gets repressed because of money and politics, apparently)
But whether or not a person believes in either a or b. you have the matter of
c. There is no gold standard in testing. Being “+” in one place can or will be “-” in another lab based on different existing criteria/markers.
But assuming a,b and c are without merit, then there’s the matter of
d. Treatment for “AIDS/HIV” – highly toxic DNA terminators. They destroy the body’s own ability to create a defense system against anything.
There’s too much money is this racket. That buys the ads, the politicians, the bureaucracies and the doctors… there’s so much more they’re not telling us. It’s out there. But if you don’t want to look, that’s your freedom of choice… of course the less freedoms we act on and defend, the less choices we have…
@Michael
Not again…
I’m sure Joe’s raving’s have been filled with the usual smugness and ‘I told you so’s’ that could only be considered logical by someone as eneduacated and inane as he is…
Again, I refuse to read the garbled mess he calls ‘posts’.
If only one day he would realize how absurdly vain he looks and take the time to learn how to be effective in discussion and debate…
@Voltaire – That’s never going to happen. And I won’t be responding, either.
I do, however, anxiously await the reaction of porn’s foes to the esteemed Dr. Richwald’s involvement. He ran LA County’s STD Program for 12 years. They don’t have Sharon Mitchell to kick around anymore.
I saw that… First thing I thought was good for them! Finally someone who has some prestige and experience working in the system…
Dr. Richwald’s resume’ seemed quite impressive and his relaxed speaking vibe was good for the organization at least in my eyes. Both producers and talent foot the bill in this proposal and at least there will be quality options available. People can bitch and complain all they want but I say stuff it unless you have the golden solution which is difficult in this day of lawsuits. AHF will be on the attack that is for sure so look out.
If porn is a multi-billion dollar a year industry then WHO IS GETTING ALL THE MONEY”?
Every time a talent gets sick they seem to be broke and all but homeless and there are fundraisers set up to try and help them. They get their daily wage for the scene they did. Probably not more then a few thousand a scene (and thats the A list talent). How many millionaire porn stars are there?
They pay for their own testing and no matter how many DVDs and tube site sales of their work that gets sold they don’t see a penny of it unlike Hollywood stars and musicians who get a piece of their TV show, Movie, or CD sale for years.
So again if its a multi-billion dollar a year industry who is making all the money? The system needs to change so that the talent gets a bigger piece of the pie I would think.
Making adult movies is something that follows you for the rest of your life (and even longer with the internet now). Making a few hundred $$$$ a day and running the risk of VD, HIV, Herpes, and god knows what else AND also paying for your own testing seems like a ripoff. They take all the risk and all the baggage and make the least amount of money in the porn food chain just doesn’t seem right. So again WHO IS GETTING ALL THE MONEY?
The new database will contain NO MEDICAL INFROMATION. It will be a list that basicly says, “Trust us, these people have been tested within the last 30 days.”
Who will recieve the test results in order to make this statement on the new database?
http://www.xbiz.com/news/134445
This article states that ‘no medical information’ will be on the new database.
Karfman,
Wasnt everybody here taling about how the AHF and UCLA and County Health were the ones who were going to cash in on all the testing after AIM was gone. Isnt their silence a bit strange when it turns outthe FSC is the one cashing in. 1000 performers at 50 bucks apiece just to sign up to be on the database. Where is all the indignation over the FSC
@Karmafan — There is no proof that porn is or ever was a multi-billion (10-12 billion are the figures one hears most often) dollar industry — even worldwide. The proponents of that theory — principally guys like Paul Fishbein and Steven Hirsch — offered that number for their own reasons. I believe they did so in the attempt to “have porn go mainstream”, or seem to do so. In other words — it was bluster. All reasonable estimates I have seen demonstrate that the porn business is, in fact, every bit as marginal as one would expect it to be.
From Forbes (an article written during the porn boom): “The idea that pornography is a $10 billion business is often credited to a study by Forrester Research. This figure gets repeated over and over. The only problem is that there is no such study. In 1998, Forrester did publish a report on the online “adult content” industry, which it pegged at $750 million to $1 billion in annual revenue. The $10 billion aggregate figure was unsourced and mentioned in passing.
“For the $10 billion figure to be accurate, you have to add in adult video networks and pay-per-view movies on cable and satellite, Web sites, in-room hotel movies, phone sex, sex toys and magazines–and still you can’t get there.”
As for who is making the money — it’s split up a hundred different ways, with most of it going to entities far flung from production — retailers, middle-men, cable/satellite TV networks, the internet, etc… One must distinguish revenues from profits. There are many many costs associated with development, production and distribution, and those come off the top. As Will Ryder will no doubt concur, the margins for producers are actually quite slim, and getting slimmer all the time.
I love this…..”a doctors responsibility to advise a performer of the risks they face in porn.”
I wonder if a any doctor is going to tell a performer that working without condoms is safe if the other person has a 28 day old test, and has had unprotected sex with multiple other sex workers, escorts, or HIV+ gay perfomrers who used condoms. But according to this esteemed doctor, and exactly what makes im esteemed has yet to be seen, “Its not what you say, but how you say it.” LMAO Could the indsutry make it any easier for their foes to attack them. For the record, I dont htink so, but I am sure they will, somehow!!! LOL Only in porn.
@QMicheal,
Speaking of ‘no such study exists,’ we’re still waiting for the independent analysis. Any time soon, or are we still waiting for the raptrue and for hell to freeze over?
One thing is for certain… allowing HIV+ performers to work with non HIV performers (as their test will supposedly say) as long as they are using a condom is like filling your car with gas while you are smoking at the same time. Sooner or later its going to go BOOM!
The industry needs to put up a huge wall and on one side goes the gay performers and crossover talent and the other side the stright talent and keep the 2 of them seperate. If you do gay or tranny scenes then thats what you do and get paid for.
$50 per performer and they arent even doing the testing, what a scam, Diane Duke and the FSC are starting to live up to the PWLs expectations, why not let Derek Hay run the damn thing, he’s a crook too.
The funniest thing is there will be people on this board who will defend this new system simply because of WHO is pointing out the obvious scam and the obvious repercussions that will accomany this ill thought out attemtp to cash in on the hole left by the closintg of AIM. Notice how none of the industry apologists are jumping on the FSC for trying to cash in on this situation, as they would be if the AHF, or County, or UCLA Reqroductive, were jumping in to ‘fill the hole'(no pun intended)
JEREMY, whats you theory on this one….”FOLLOW THE MONEY” straight to the FSC’s bank accounts.
@Karmafan
To add to the discussion, the amount of money performers make is market-oriented and based on the specific performer’s popularity and work ethic. Im sure every credible producer will tell you they budget for how much each movie/scene they can afford payout for the ‘talent’. If this amount is too low for a performer, then they don’t have to decide to take part in the production.
Im willing to bet that there are performer’s in the industry who would have no trouble affording any possible healthcare needs. Im also willing to be that there are performer’s who spend more money than they should, and who have not setup any comprehensive savings plan or emergency fund.
Now of course we must give this time. It hasnt even started yet. But NOBODY has even asked the BIGGEST question yet.
What will be the policy when a straight industry performer, who has been working in the industry for a while, suddenly tests POSITIVE for HIV?
Until this question is answered, everything else is a moot point. CHRISTIAN, any answers on this? Diane?
Here is a hint for all of you. “IF” these tests are being done on a ‘self refferal’ basis, it will be the duty of the COUNTY to ivestigate and notify potnetialy exposed partners. At AIM that DUTY fell upon the reffering physician, Dr. Hamblin, not the county. If it is self refferal, that legal duty goest to the COUNTY. Have fun with that. LMAO.
@Larry Horse — With respect, please don’t assume you’ve now heard about all the elements of the program, and all the benefits of membership. The program’s organizers have specifically said they are still developing and assembling other aspects and elements of the program — the testing portion was, quite obviously, the most pressing element, and thus it was rolled out first.
@Voltaire – Quite right; the adult movie business is not immune to market principals and the law of supply and demand.
Oh I am sure the vast majority of the talent spends their money as fast as they make it (new rides, clothes, and nose candy before they think about next month or next year) probably figuring why plan for the future when I’m living just for today? Thats why when someone gets sick or injured they have nothing to fall back on.
@Karmafan — Sadly, that’s not a syndrome unique to porn, or entertainment. Most of this country is now spending its money as fast as it makes it — and usually faster.
@Karmafan
Also, as Michael has pointed out in other threads, in cases involving severe disability or impairment, there is the potential for relief through Worker’s Comp. But in minor impairments or incidents outside the industry, should producers really be expected to foot the bill because a performer is fiscally irresponsible?
@Michael
I have my Master’s in ECON and even at just cursory glances the economics of the adult industry are fascinating! I would love to get my hands on some hard data…
@Voltaire — Good luck getting hard data — the vast majority of these are privately held companies. Not to mention, for reasons I alluded to above, many in this industry long thought it wise to boast and exaggerate their earnings and marketshare. There’s no numbers, only estimates — much like HIV/AIDS, actually.
As for production liabilities, there’s also something called production insurance which alleviates certain liabilities.
@Michael Whiteacre
Don’t I know it! Any industry that doesn’t have at least a small number publicly-traded companies is damn near impossible to truly evaluate (though OTC’s are just as bad, their reporting standards are so low that their 10- statements turn into inaccurate marketing attempts). Still, even if I could get my hands on the (accurate) books of one of the larger companies, would I think, be quite interesting and enlightening…
@Karmafan – That doesn’t happen only in porn. Though some porn peeps take shopping, partying and living in lavish apartments to the extreme, plenty of people outside the industry spend money just as thoughtlessly. Think of all the traditional suburban families buying homes and cars they can’t afford, sending their kids to camp they can’t afford, joining country clubs they can’t afford, all because they’re trying to show off in front of their neighbors. The lifestyles are different but the end result is often similar: an uncertain future and lots of debt. The main difference is that when a performer is struggling there’s a lot of judgment and I told you so’s.
As a producer I can let you know that the money is not as good as it used to be and it is actually risky to produce a quality movie because you no longer know if you will make a profit. We put about 5 months of work including pre-production, the actual shoot, post work and marketing into every movie and it is a long process with no guaranteed pot of gold at the end. Also, why are people blaming FSC? They are attempting to provide a solution and I really do not think it is a money grab at all. The database must be built and maintained which does cost money.
@Will Ryder
Just a quick question… When you hire performer’s, do you considered them to be ’employees’? Or do you consider them to be ‘contracted labor’? I understand this has no legal bearing and is just Mr. Ryder’s opinion, I am just curious what a producer’s point of view is.
I understand if you’re uncomfortable answering the question…
@Voltaire,
Why would that be an uncomfortable question to answer?
Here’s an uncomfortqable question for Will, what do you do on your sets AFTER someone has been exposed to a blood borne pathogen? Do you do the legally mandated tests, at employers expense? Or, do you have a proper eye wash kit for a perfomer to use when they get semen in their eyes, and is that kit made readily available, or does the performer have to leave the potentialy infectious material in their eyes while you get your pictures of it?
”Have Gun Will Travel” reads the card of a man. A knight without armor in a savage land.
@Michael Whiteacre
Isn’t it amazing to watch the infantile and desperate lash out for just that ounce of attention?
@Will Ryder
I apologize… It wasn’t my intention to open you up to unfounded and childish criticism. No need to answer my question. Again, I apologize for that.
Ah yes, the flip side of freedom of speech is the right to remain silent. Funny how the loudest free speech suporters will siddenly clam up when faced with tought questions, which if answered honestly, would shed negative light on their choice of ways to exercise that freedom. This is too easy.
Still waiting Michael, where is the analysis that you guaranteed us was coming. Still LMAO.
@joeknow
Not trying to pick a fight, but seriously, for the tenth fucking time, do you dislike pornography? Some of your points are valid, just not from the perspective of a penis carrying individual.
It seems like a temporary patch to me. None of the issues that may have led to AIM’s downfall appear to be addressed.
The fact that only 3 performers actually showed up to this meeting and only a few showed up to the other one, says a lot about the state of the industry.
FSC never addresses what the Florida companies (Bang Bros)and a few others are doing with using crossover talent who work with untested male performers. Also, there have been some serious charges levied against some industry people that never got addressed, for example baiting and switching of talent. It would be nice of FSC to have some kind of performer advocates that talent can turn to if an issue came up on the set (bait and switch, abuse, breaking agreements etc…) or issues with agents. A lot of girls and guys have been ripped off and burned in this industry and there are few people they can turn to.
I also think it is going to be hard for FSC to defend to OSHA a series of films that she girls snorting semen up their noses (Porno Dan) or the POV vaginal and anal creampie scenes where herpes and penile/vaginal/anal wart lesions are visible and claim that the industry is safe.
@chichiladouche – What the lack of performer attendance says to me is that the agents, by and large, are afraid of letting the performers have contact with any entities without THEM being the filter. I know that Mark Spiegler was there, however. I think the attendance says more about the agents than the performers.
Specifically, what issue that led to AIM’s downfall has not been addressed?
@chichiladouche
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe Florida hasn’t been addressed is because the current issues are California OSHA centric. Also, I don’t believe AHF hasn’t specifically addressed Florida, at least I haven’t read anything.
I’m guessing CAL/OSHA (even the California State Legislature) is much more sympathetic toward AHF. Also, as Michael has stated in other threads, AHF’s founder already has personal contacts with California lawmakers. The best move for AHF would be to change the production standards in California and then move on to other production centers armed with that. Or, if AHF fails in California (which Im sure will happen), they can move on to places like Florida. Rather than fail everywhere at once, AHF can attempt to prolong their (supposed) relevancy…
@Michael
How am I doing for an amateur? Am I starting to grasp the nature of AHF, or am I talking out of my ass?
*I don’t believe AHF HAS specifically addressed Florida…
California is the first step — and also represents the biggest publicity goldmine for Weinstein. He is a megalomaniac sexophobe, and nothing he is doing has anything to do with workplace safety or public health. Take a look at the video AHF: Follow The Money. Could his M.O. be any more transparent?
When I say CAL/OSHA centric, I mean that they provide the means for AHF’s goals, not that they actually care…
Yes, politics and profit.
I was just looking at their Financial Statements for FY2009 and 2010. AHF makes over $150mil on their own pharmacy scheme, the vast majority of their revenues… Not donations or grants, but being in business as a paid-for pharmacy. Wow…
Look at the figure for total executive-level compensation.
They don’t have the executive compensation broken out in the filing Im looking at, but the total salaries expense is $52mil…
And they report have 501 full-time employees for an average of $103,000 per employee. Gotta assume the lower level administrative staff (which probably amounts to the majority of employees) isn’t making close to that, leaving quite a sum left-over for the big boys! Jesus, I’m in the wrong line of work!
And I’m sure Weinstein’s travel isn’t included in that… I bet altogether, he’s raking in over $500,000 or $600,000 a year…
Not bad for a non-profit lobbying group…
Public records indicate he’s situated in a lovely little $1.68 million house overlooking Los Feliz, as well.
Jesus… You’ve just gotta respect those people that aren’t in it for the glory or the money… People who just wanna help society (sarcasm). Pathetic
In addition… Weinstein is pushing the pharmaceutical companies to lower prices on certain medications by 20%… Medications AHF’s going to turn around and sell in THEIR pharmacies! Jeremy, you want a conspiracy theory, there you go…
Talk about a gross conflict of interest!
Plus, by forcing the pharmaceutical companies to lower prices, AHF’s pharmacies can lower prices without having to cut into their own margins! What a fucking scam…
Of course, it’s ALL about money; and when it’s all about money, people will congregate, conspire and just plain ol’ con others (whether or not they know, or care to know, they’re conning others) to get their share, Voltaire. It’s The American Way!
In 2010, AHF had gross revenues of $260mil… Their gross expenses were $240mil…
Leaving a “profit” of $20mil, that’s almost a 10% net margin! I bet there are producers who would love to hit that margin…
@Jeremy
I have no problem with people who seeks to enrich themselves and make a profit. I have a severe problem with someone who does it under the guise of a ‘non-profit’ organization, especially when they seek to change legislation that coincides with THEIR moralistic view…
Shit, their Cashflow Statement shows they have over $50mil in cash on hand! Not to mention $89mil in assets and only $40mil in liabilities…
I admittedly have very limited dealings with non-profits, but it amazes me that this is legal!
I agree with you, completely. They are not a “non-profit” organization. People at AHF are making serious salaries and they are only seeking more money and power based on the foundation laid by doctored psuedo-science and the market created by the sale of deadly “therapy” drugs. The whole thing is a big fucking, evil sham!
The kicker is, I’m sure Weinstein gets a ‘bonus’ on the total amount of revenues AHF attains and being able to keep costs lower that revenues… I essence he’s getting a dividend!
@Jeremy
I’m not gonna get into the whole ‘psuedo-science’ thing, but just looking at the Financial Statements shows what a colossal scam AHF is!
You’re right that there’s no need to examine the details of HIV/AIDS “science” to know AIDS “non-profit” organizations like AHF are a fucking SCAM! But keep peeling the layers of the onion and you’ll find there’s scam after scam after scam. When people make a profit off their declarations, you can’t blindly trust them… not if you are without indifference to facts and truth. Nor can you buy what is said by the entities they control and/or pay who prostitute themselves for the party line.
@chichiladouche – Bang Bros uses both recent tests and condoms for all their straight scenes. I assume the same goes for their gay stuff.
@Jeremy
You’re definetly right about this scenario. AHF removes the profit incentive, but are still running a $250mil business. What really bothers me, is the blatant manipulation by Weinstein…
Weinstein is literally a Business Major, and he’s running the so-called “non-profit” just as a savvy business major without scruples would. And, after all, it IS savvy to run a business which is officially non-profit. It’s a great business to have, especially during tax season.
Just remember, if Scientology can pay off the government to attain “Religious” tax-exempt status, then don’t expect laws to have anything to do with what is right and wrong! It costs lots of money to reach L. Ron Hubbard’s various levels of “enlightment”. It’s too bad for Tony Robbins and other motivational speakers that they can’t get “religious” status, as well.
He’s trying to use legislation to strong-arm his suppliers (pharmaceutical companies) so his pharmacies don’t have to take a hit to their margins. And he’s doing it by playing the ‘moral authority’. I mean, common sense tells us that the cheaper something is, the more people will be able to afford it. But instead of sharing the brunt of the cost, he’s forcing all the costs on the suppliers. I mean think of this in an international perspective, where AHF is potentially supplying GOVERMENTS, who are paying with aid money anyway. He can sell more of the drugs, but keep the EXACT same margins…
This guy is truly scum of the earth…
@Jeremy
But I disagree with you on one thing… This isn’t ‘savvy’, it’s predatory…
Sorry I didn’t respond to Voltaire or to Joe Know quickly as I was away enjoying my life lol. To Voltaire-I consider talent to be independent contractors. To Joe Know-I also believe that our sets have been updated to have the latest in recommended kits and opportunities for talent testing in all areas. I know that we spent money with an attorney and also a professional that was providing a service for companies to remain compliant so I am pretty sure we are up to date. If we find that we are not we always make a quick effort to do the right thing. Now if a girl gets cum in her eye she will immediately be allowed to wash it out because we take still photos before the sex scene and use liquid soap for the jizz.
@Will Ryder
Thanks for the response.
You mean you don’t live to post on LIB 24/7? Ha! I’ll admit, today was bad for me. I was stuck on the computer all day and it just seemed easier to procrastinate and post on here than to get any real work done…
When I said “savvy” I was thinking of Johnny Depp saying it as a pirate… shrewd, rude, lewd and crude… and pirates ARE predators, so, again I agree with ya!
Holy shit, the more I read in AHF’s Financial Statement, the more blown away I am.
Another way AHF is getting revenue is through Medicare and Medicaid. The problem is, instead of charging the cost of the medicine, service, and maybe a small fee, they are charging MARKET rates! They are charging tax payer the same amount that any for-profit hospital is charging!
I am utterly amazed…
The only difference is, AHF isn’t paying taxes…
Yet something else!
They have an ‘Other Expenses’ line item which they do not disclose in the notes!
The ‘Other Expenses’ is a further $18mil!
Not trying to disrupt the current discussion or anything, but is anyone here reading Ashley Blue’s memoir that just came out last week? There’s some pretty shocking revelations in there. I guess it was naive of me to think that certain people that I enjoyed in the industry are complete assholes and sleazes, and I’m not talking about JM here.
You see, Ashley does this clever little thing where she changes peoples names up to avoid libel while at the same time, clueing in fans and insiders to who she’s talking about. For example she talks about this one guy who basically anally raped her without lube, and is known to do it to a lot of the new girls, and that when the girls try and report him, no one listens because he was so well liked and respected in the biz. She said that this guy worked for Anabolic early on and went by the name of “Victor Viewer”.
Hmmmmmmmm wonder who she’s talking about there?
She also talks about working for a guy named “Pro Trusion”. Guess we’re going to have to bring Sherlock Holmes in on that one, right?
@Fartz
Hasn’t really been a discussion, per se… More just me ranting about AHF…
@Michael Whiteacre I guess the lack of confidence that a lot of performers have with the testing system as a whole whether it’s Patient Zeta, PWL, etc… Interesting points about lack of performer participation. It does make me believe more that there should be some kind of performer advocate that someone can turn to if something happened to them and for whatever reason can’t go to an agent or anyone else in the industry. IMO test results should only be made available to producers who are CONFIRMED to be working with the talent whose tests they want to access and look at. It would cost $$$ but in the case of producers I think they should only have temporary passwords that expire within a week or two after they have completed their work with the performer. Also, I think that performer passwords should be changed frequently and if a performer decides to retire/leave the industry they could notify the testing facility that they are leaving the industry and 90 days after they shoot their last scene have all of their info taken off line. Or if said performer hasn’t worked within a year of the date of their last test their information will be taken offline.
@Voltaire Many (maybe most) of current talent will work in Florida at some point in their career, so in other words to me at least what a performer does down in Florida affects them and what CAL/OSHA will do in California, if the standards aren’t universal.
@tigger_lover I don’t see condoms in most of their straight scenes. He has credibility issues to say the least, but Derrick Burts claims to have contracted HIV on a bang bros gay shoot with a performer that was known to be HIV positive but he was not told that the male performer he worked with was positive which brings in the question of whether the gay part of bang bros does test. There are a lot of gay companies working in South Florida and many of these guys go from company to company and the testing protocol wildly varies, with most relying on condoms only. One of Burts female costars said the asked him point blank if he shot gay scenes and he told her no. Recently a few female performers were upset to find out that male performer Antonio Giovanni had shot a gay scene 24 hours before shooting a bang bros scene with them and even moreso when his rentboy ad was discovered. Recent tests are a moot point if your exposure was 24 hours before a shoot.
I think those things should be addressed as well, but sadly I don’t think they will be. Again for all the talk about how bad AHF is some of the actions by people in this industry are sure playing into their hands. Again, I think it is hard to defend yourself as a clean, safe industry when you have people snorting semen up their noses, or showing POV unprotected sex with talent that have herpes or HPV genital wart genital lesions.
@chichiladouche — You might find this far more detailed explanation of FSC’s program interesting: http://fscblogger.wordpress.com/2011/05/27/fsc-rolls-out-plans-for-adult-production-health-safety-services/
You wrote: “Derrick Burts claims to have contracted HIV on a bang bros gay shoot with a performer that was known to be HIV positive but he was not told that the male performer he worked with was positive…” More precisely, Derrick Burts CLAIMS to have contracted HIV on a Bang Bros gay shoot with a performer that was known to be HIV positive but HE CLAIMS he was not told that the male performer he worked with was positive. I’m not claiming any producer is an angel, but this is only a charge, and not proven.
I also don’t see how having people snort semen up their noses is — legally — any different than any other unprotected consensual sex between adults. In people’s personal lives, it represents the protected right to pursue happiness and the right to be left alone. Commit it to film/video and it also represents constitutionally protected speech.
Adult/sexual content is not the redheaded stepchild of protected content. What the AHF/OSHA proposal amounts to is the government telling people that they must alter their message, at the behest and demand of the government, to conform with what the government deems more appropriate. And what is the basis that AHF claims demands this governmental intrusion? That THE CONTENT SENDS A BAD MESSAGE. These people object to the content – plain and simple. That is an constitutionally impermissible basis. That is censorship. Throw in the fact that the people proposing this are condom-peddling profiters of AIDS fear and hysteria, and it’s doubly contemptible.
@Fartz – I haven’t read Ashley Blue’s “memoir” but, from what I’ve heard of it, I find it notable that many (though not all) of the persons apparently (and implicitly) implicated have left or been drummed out of the industry. I also find it notable that she’s reporting crimes and transgressions 8-9 years after the fact. I’m also reminded of Elvis Costello’s admonition: “This isn’t confession — this is pop music.” Her statements are not sworn testimony, they are literature — how much is non-fiction, how much is subjective recollections informed by later subjective rationales and purposes, and how much is poetic license is unknown. I’m not being critical of her here, either — any first-person account of one’s recollections so long after they occurred is problematic without separate, independent, less-subective corroboration — and even then! One must weigh the recollector’s state of mind both then and now.
As Robert Evans wrote, “There are three sides to every story: Your side, my side, and the truth. And no one is lying. Memories shared serve each differently.”
Michael, I understand the charge was unproven but some of the problems I see is that Bang Bros/Venetian never addressed the allegations that Burts made against them. They did however take down the scenes where Burts claimed he was infected (oddly enough Bang Bros choose to keep his scene up on their Fuck Team Five website). I think it also falls back into the fact that the gay industry doesn’t have a universal standard as far as HIV/STD testing goes and that is dangerous. I don’t know, I know a test isn’t a security blanket, but now there is a chance that your male scene partner may have had unprotected sex with another male a few days before he shoots with you. Also it was frustrating to read that almost none of his scene partners male or female cooperated with the investigation.
As far as the semen snorting goes, I guess I’m looking at it from a safety hazard standpoint which is what Cal/OSHA is going after. What happens if one of those girls says she was under the influence? Didn’t Kira Kener get a large settlement from Vivid because she contracted an STD on a set? Seeing visible genital herpes sores or venereal warts on a performer doesn’t help the industry’s cause that they are a safe industry. I think there are some people that are in positions of power that are reckless and if condoms are required for California productions, some of the blame should be pointed at them.
@chichiladouche — Yes, the fact that the gay side of the business has been hiding behind Weinstein’s “fig leaf” is a real problem, and they’re going to have to address it real fast. I think ALL adult performers MUST be regularly tested regularly.
It is neither surprising nor disappointing to me to hear AHF and LA County claim that
“almost none of his scene partners male or female cooperated with the investigation.” When entities that are currently persecuting you, and trying to put you out of business come knocking — without a warrant — why in G-d’s name would you potentially incriminate yourself or anyone else?
The Kira Kener settlement might just as well be seen as hush money/fuck off money as anything else. I’m familiar with her charges (some of which were ridiculous) but not the actual record.
As for genital warts/herpes, let me give you the other side of that argument — it they’re openly visible, how can someone claim they didn’t know that person had it? And if they saw it, and STILL let that thing inside of them — then who’s the asshole?
@chichiladouce
Are you sure you’re not confusing razor bumps with herpes or genital warts? I personally have never seen a porn video with herpes or warts visible (no, Im not trying to claim Ive seen every porn scene out there and I could very easily be wronh). Im just saying, if you see that on your partner, why in the world would you fuck that?
*wrong
I don’t see how anyone with even a tiny portion of brain cells can knowingly let someone thats HIV+ make porn films.
Any person in authority thats directing or producing porn films and lets a HIV+ performer work with HIV- performers and does not tell those HIV- people that person is + should be brought up on charges and go to prison for attempted murder or at the very least reckless endangerment.
@Karmafan
Gay/straight, condoms or not… I agree with you100%.
I don’t get the rationale, that if you believe HIV kills and someone may have it, that condoms are gonna protect ya within a community that is extremely conscious about AIDS. Since gays are considered much more HIV risky, than what’s with the assumption that they aren’t using protection? Ping pong balls going through a hula hoop is what normal voids in condoms are to virus-size particles. And condoms break at a much higher rate than HIV has shown to be transmitted from one positive to a negative person during unprotected sex, whether anal or vaginal. I’ll say this all again just to annoy everyone: condoms are a dumb con, HIV testing is bogus in absence of any test for HIV itself and any gold standard for HIV detection (different opinions from different labs as to what constitutes HIV-indicative markers). And then the “medicine” for AIDS causes immune suppression. You do the math.
@Whitacre:
She says it was her second gig in the biz and she was told to come in just for stills. He snapped a few pics then left the room and emerged with a video camera and ordered her to suck his cock. She complied because she wasn’t sure if it was part of the movie or not he then walked to the backside and stuck it in raw. She said it hurt like holy hell and still, she wasn’t sure if this was rape or part of the movie. The situation was interupted when the actual still photographer rang the doorbell. She goes on to say VV pulled out and acted like nothing happened and then they proceeded to take stills with the real still potographer. Here’s a quote: “Why did I have to get there two and a half hours early? So he could fuck and molest me?
That’s her account. The way she constantly admits to fault, kind of accentuates her honesty. Plus, this was a big deal to her, and I’m sure her early days of Porn are just as memorable to her as any of our early days at any crazy job is to us. I’m not trying to say it did or didn’t happen. I guess what I’m trying to say is, well, I believe her.
“As for genital warts/herpes, let me give you the other side of that argument — it they’re openly visible, how can someone claim they didn’t know that person had it? And if they saw it, and STILL let that thing inside of them — then who’s the asshole?”
This is mixing a hypothetical within a hypothetical. What if the performer didn’t see the warts? What if a performer saw the warts but thought they were benign? What if the performer saw the warts and thought they had a vaccine?
The fact is, if genital warts were captured on-screen as evidence, it would be unacceptable conduct. This is business. In your personal life you can be as reckless as you want but when it comes to business, an employer could be held accountable for facilitating reckless acts.
@origen – One person’s recklessness is another person’s clear-minded intent. This has to be viewed CASE BY CASE.
You ask: “What if a performer saw the warts but thought they were benign? What if the performer saw the warts and thought they had a vaccine?”
Exactly. What if? We don’t know.
What would a reasonably prudent individual do?
Was there a discussion of this on set, either between the performers OR between the producer and performer(s)? If someone was LIED to, they should be cited and/or charged. But the fact that performers who suffer from a certain malady are seen working together on video is not in itself problematic.
Don’t people with diseases have the right to have sex, too? Have you heard of Poz videos? Don’t people with HIV retain the right to enjoy sex? Maybe that’s art of the message — the content — of the scene (again, speaking hypothetically).
Facilitation of a non-criminal, non-tortious “reckless” act (i.e. where there was knowledge and consent) is neither a crime nor a tort. Did you ever see any of the Jackass movies, origen? Why weren’t producer/director Jeff Tremaine, Dickhouse Productions, Lynch Siderow productions, MTV Films, Paramount Pictures, and producers Spike Jonez, Johnny Knoxville cited, charged, prosecuted, etc..?
@Origen
I know I’d be pissed my partner were having an outbreak and didn’t at least tell me.
Also, from a producer’s standpoint, would you really want to put out a video that showed one or the other performer’s with warts or herpes? If I were watching a scene and saw that shit, I would turn it off immediately…
I wouldn’t want to watch it either, but that doesn’t per se make it wrong or actionable.
But, yes, its hard to imagine there’s a ton of producers putting out revolting scenes and hoping to turn a profit.
Have you guys ever been on a porn set? Have you ever seen how particular/obsessive performers can be about cleanliness? They’re terrified of getting a staph infection. If the see ANYTHING on another performer’s body, they freak. A: “It’s just a spider bite.” B: “Bullshit, it’s staph!” (An actual exchange — and it wasn’t stapf, BTW.)
There’s one young woman who uses five different kinds of mouthwash, mixed together — and insists that her scene partners do the same. It kills everything in your mouth, but it has to be used within a couple of minutes of preparation.
But, if there are cowboys out there lying to or tricking performers, shut them down. Again, you have to determine this case by case.
@Michael Whiteacre
I for one have definetly not been on a porn set and I totally agree with you…
Case by case basis? Well, I guess the lawyer in you likes that idea. More litigation is better, I suppose–seriously. I just thought it was inefficient from a business POV…
BTW, its true. I’ve never been on a porn set. But I double face-palmed when I read your “pornstar thinks mouth-wash can kill HPV” anecdote. Silly whores.
14 pills a day. What a racket!
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110530/hl_afp/healthaidsanniversaryelderly
@origen — I don’t mean that every claim needs to end up in court (although criminal acts definitely should), I mean that one can’t paint an industry with so broad a brush. And yes, I selected that mouthwash story for a reason — although it goes to state of mind and business practice, just like YOUR example, it is anecdotal.
The plural of “anecdote” is not “data.”
And yes, litigation DOES represent an inefficient business model — which is further logical proof why it’s unlikely that businesses would wantonly place themselves at risk of such litigation.
Oh, and mouthwash may help to kill the virus before it develops into an oral wart:
http://www.wartstreatmenthelp.com/oral-warts.html
@ Voltaire
If I were a producer, the safety of my performers would be my top priority. I would be in the business primarily because I enjoy sex and I would only want performers are the same. I wouldn’t want performers damaging their bodies only for some short-run profit so I would inspect them from head to toe, following up on a comprehensive health exam (more comprehensive than AIM). There would be no way a performer with visible warts would end up on video. In the rare possibility that it did happen, I would be fucked. I would have to undergo crisis procedures to try and mitigate any transmission of disease. It was my set, therefore it was my responsibility to make sure no diseases were transmitted on my set.
Of course, I’m not a producer. So, I wouldn’t want to put out that kind of video but many producers would just so they could get some revenue.
I have seen some porn movies that the girls had big zits on her ass or bruises all over the place. Doesn’t anyone cover them up any more? I know its gonzo and they trying to make the movies as cheap as possible but even cheap skin cover makeup can’t be more then a fe dollars.
Ava Lauren had many a movie with her being bruised. I always wondered if she was in an abusive relationship, likes to rollerskate and isn’t very good at it, or has trouble seeing where she is going?
@ Michael,
There are many different strains of HPV. Many cancerous strains are asymptomatic. There is no medical research, to my young knowledge, that advocates mouth-wash as a mitigant or as an adequate treatment for the case of a HPV infection.
“I have seen some porn movies that the girls had big zits on her ass or bruises all over the place.”
I know who you’re talking about…
Oliva O’lovely.
@Karmafan — Maybe Ava is/was anemic (reducing her platelet count, etc…), or maybe she’s into BDSM — or both?
@origen — In no way am I asserting that antiseptic mouthwash prevents all HPV, I merely point out that the use of mouthwash is not without SOME merit. I never mentioned HPV in the first place — that was your interpretation of my anecdote.
In any case, even though I have never shot hardcore sex, I always have mouthwash and body-cleanising products on hand for the performers.
Facilitation of a non-criminal, non-tortious “reckless” act (i.e. where there was knowledge and consent) is neither a crime nor a tort.
This is a circular definition. As for those fools in “Jackass”, if one of those douchebags got seriously fucked up for life, you better believe there would be a lawsuit…
@ Michael,
That remark was just for clarity. I didn’t want someone reading your anecdote about mouth-wash to think they are safe from HPV. They are not.
@origen – You are mistaken. The nature of the act (i.e. is it criminal or tortious) is the issue.
They might sue but they’d be tossed out of court. Assumption of risk. Volenti non fit injuria. Not to mention the waivers of liability they sign.
The next time you go to a major league baseball game, check the back of the ticket. You can’t even sue if you get beaned in the head by a foul ball! You assume the risk. Lose an eye? You assumed the risk.
And you’re not even being paid to be there.
And as for HPV, FEW of us are safe from it — according to CDC, upwards of 50% of sexually active adults will contract it in their lifetime.
origen said, “As for those fools in “Jackass”, if one of those douchebags got seriously fucked up for life, you better believe there would be a lawsuit…”
those fools DID get fucked up for life… did’ya see them branding their asses? i didn’t see that many of the original cast returning for Jackass3!
i meant a couple guys didn’t show up, at least
And, as for the disingenuous Joe Know’s claim that OSHA isn’t proposing any “barrier protection” other than condoms, these are excerpts from the draft that OSHA just leaked “containing possible language that could be proposed as a new section in the California Code of Regulations.”
“Barrier protection for the eye, skin, and mucous membranes. The employer shall not permit ejaculation onto the employee’s eyes, skin, or mucous membranes. If work activities may expose the employee’s eyes, skin, or mucous membranes to blood or OPIM—STI , the employer shall provide suitable barrier protection.”
“Methods of Compliance.
(A) Simulation of sex acts using acting and production and post-production techniques;
(B) Ejaculation onto surfaces other than another person’s body;
(C) Provision of and required use of condoms or other barrier protection,
etc….”
Note also that the words employer and employee are used throughout — it demonstrates that it is in the interest of these regulators to label all adult production industry workers “employees.”
All 3 of those methods of compliance are nails in the coffin of porn. Maybe not so much (B). Nice way to get rid of porn without openly trying to get rid of it.
@Karmafan – Taking a hard line also represents a means to extort a “compromise” settlement with the adult industry.
How interesting that UCLA just opened a new infectious disease rapid testing facility (at a reported cost of $32 million). http://www.scpr.org/news/2011/05/20/ucla-open-first-its-kind-infectious-disease-lab/
Must just be a coincidence.
Guys, this is ALL about MONEY. Grant money, tax money, contributions, and fees for services.
Michael, isn’t attacking porn’s opponents (their motives, character, etc) unprofessional? It seems like its adding fuel to the fire. And we already got a bonfire on our hands…
@origen – I reject your premise(s). First, it was they who attacked the adult industry. This is a defensive action.
Second, these creeps regularly attack and impune the characters and motives of people within the adult industry. Calling out the pots that called our kettles black is not only justified, it is necessary.
Are you suggesting that if the industry is “nice” to them they’ll leave it alone?
And, for the record, I never called them unprofessional. They ARE prodessionals — professional con artists, grandstanders, liars, manipulators, etc… That’s what makes them so formidable and dangerous.
Do not return evil for evil…
@origen – Thanks for the advice. As Hans Gruber said in Die Hard, “I’ll take it under advisement.”
If it’s true, is it evil?
Are you suggesting that if the adult industry is “nice” to them they’ll stop and leave us alone?
It was just a saying. You know that…
“Are you suggesting that if the adult industry is ‘nice’ to them they’ll stop and leave us alone?”
No. But maintaining professional decorum strengthens porn’s cause. People will have more empathy for your position.
@origen — If you think that pointing out hypocrisy and conflict of interest (as well as potentially illegal collusion) is wrong, then I don’t know what to tell you.
And, as a practical matter, if taking “the high road” were so damn effective we wouldn’t see so many political attack ads.
No one is going to empathize with the porn business — you’re kidding yourself. The masses, by and large, think of porn production as a 24-hour drug party complete with teens being lured online, brought to sets under false pretenses, and before you know it your little girl is being forced to have anal sex on camera. If you think I’m making that up, THAT IS A PARAPHRASE OF SOMETHING SHELLEY LUBBEN SAYS NOW. That is the stereotype these people sustain. And you imagine public empathy? The adult industry is in this alone. The only friend of the porn industry is the US Constitution.
http://blogs.laweekly.com/informer/2011/05/new_porn_clinic_angeles_1.php
Whitacre, you are such a fucking bought and paid for hack. I loved your long comment at the end of the LA Weekly thing where you use the straw man fallacy to defend AIM and Mitchell. No one gave a fuck that AIM wasn’t run by a medical doctor. Many medical institutions (like hospitals) are run by non-medical administrators. The problem is that Mitchell is hustler/fraud with a high school level education. The fact that she pretended to be a legit PHD who was pretending to be a white-coated MD was just icing on the cake.
Straw man fallacy? No one gave a fuck that AIM wasn’t run by a medical doctor?
http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20101212005039/en/Pink-Cross-Salutes-Los-Angeles-County-Closing
“The only friend of the porn industry is the US Constitution.”
Michael, I like porn but the US Constitution does not specifically include the right to produce pornography. I cannot legally produce pornography where I live and the statutes precluding me from doing so have been affirmed by my State Supreme Court.
“And, as a practical matter, if taking “the high road” were so damn effective we wouldn’t see so many political attack ads.”
People remember negative campaign ads but, when polled, unanimously find them distasteful. Just because attack ads are “effective” does not mean a positive approach cannot be more impactful.
Which do you remember more from the 2008 cycle? “Yes, We Can” or “[John McCain] is out of touch”?
And who says people are, universally, ready to condemn porn? I’m not talking about convincing everybody. Why do you think the $10+ billion figure has paraded about by the media and America is that largest consumer of porn. There is a certain mystique that Erotica radiates towards the masses. Even Shelly Lubben admits that.
This is an Industry about making love. Let’s be cool as a cucumber….Even as its US that’s about to get fucked.
@origen – An excellent point. However, currently many states, including the state where I am sitting writing this right now, look favorably upon, and often cite, the reasoning of the Freeman case from California. Pro-Freeman appears to be the trend.
The First Amendment protects UNPOPULAR SPEECH — popular speech does not need protection. Pornography is speech protected by the First Amendment unless it falls afoul of the definition of “obscenity.” Pornography is understood to be a category, like “art” itself, based on subjective human reactions and therefore not subject to any precise definition. (Ironically, obscenity is defined as a subset of something which cannot itself be defined!)
Origen, I know what you’re saying, but in war, if your enemy has tanks, you fight him with tanks — or weapons even more powerful. You don’t swat him with a rolled-up newspaper. They are demonizing members of the adult production community — their ethics, their morality and their business practices. These ARE the tactics of porn’s foes.
Yes, people like porn — but they also liked their personal freedoms until they were told that the Patriot Act was NEEDED to keep them safe; that it was for “the greater good.” A populace informed only by grandstanding, histrionics, stereotypes and character attacks can be hoodwinked into going along with authoritarian maneuvers. Make no mistake, these people are authoritarian in style, strategy, purpose and rhetoric.
As for my “distasteful” approach, as soon as Michael Weinstein stops using these tactics, I will.
“Origen, I know what you’re saying, but in war, if your enemy has tanks, you fight him with tanks — or weapons even more powerful. You don’t swat him with a rolled-up newspaper. They are demonizing members of the adult production community — their ethics, their morality and their business practices. These ARE the tactics of porn’s foes.”
Now it is I who must reject the premise.
Let’s make love and not war. We may vehemently disagree with the motives of those who are trying to shut porn down but let us assume they are acting in good faith–not as a conspiracy or as part of some nefarious plot to monopolize adult talent testing (for the huge windfalls *wink). Ad-hominem tit-for-tat only makes the debate more vitriolic–which limits the Industry’s options and degree of maneuverability.
It is not an adequate way to defend oneself. The best the defense is to argue as you argue with me and joe know on this board–argue the facts and argue the reasoning.
Listen to the way Samantha Lewis handled her tete-a-tete with Brian Chase (AHF General Counsel) on KPCC’s “Airtalk” late last year. She argued with professionalism and refrained from personally attacking him.
origen — Every war effort is comprised of different organizational structures, or arms, backed by their own philosophy for use on different fronts and in different campaigns. Propaganda and disinformation constitute one arm, diplomacy and “the charm offensive” constitute another, and, attack represents the last.
Each has its place.
Put another way – in court, the attorney’s job is to destroy the arguments of the opposing side AND to destroy the credibility of those presenting the other side’s case. That is what I am endeavoring to do here. Someone’s lies/propensity to lie and conflicts of interest ARE EXTREMELY RELEVANT. Calling a liar a liar is not an attack, it’s a statement of fact.
Have you read AHF’s press releases? Every quote from Weinstein is an attack, either on AIM, or Larry Flynt personally, or the adult film industry — or even LA County, when they don’t bow down to him and suck his toes.
Have you read this quote from Weinstein? “These people [adult film producers] are fabulously rich. Larry Flynt has made a large fortune by exploiting young people. His wife died of AIDS. He watched her wither and die. Shame on him. Why should we care whether their profits go down? Why would we put that on a higher level than the health of these young people?”
These people don’t say this stuff in the context of a debate — they use the press to disseminate this swill — so it goes unchallenged. Well, here I am to challenge it.
origen — You are not Michael Weinstein or Shelley Lubben. You are not a profiteer of the misery of others who nonetheless claims a halo. You and I may disagree, and perhaps we can sway each other’s point of view. There is nothing one can say to Lubben, for instance, that will make her change her mind. This is someone who has refused to look in the mirror her whole life, even going so far as to create an alternate universe for herself in which G-d almighty tells her she’s got it right and everyone else is wrong.
Now, were I actually debating someone from AHF, I would comport myself differently. I’ve spoken face-to-face (at some length) with AHF’s Whitney Engeran-Cordova, for instance, and we had a very civil discussion (even though he was extremely disingenuous, he was civil). I don’t go around frothing at the mouth, origen, but there is a time for debate and there is a time for STRONG CRITICISM and there is a time for battle. These guys dish it out regularly.
You say, let’s make love not war. You propose debate. Who is listening to the debate? The members of the LA City Council who accepted campaign donations from AHF and then put forth AHF’s proposal? LA Weekly, who didn’t even bother to show up at the FSC press conference, or refer to a copy of the press release, before posting an article about the FSC’s program? How many people would have known about all the facts in the AHF: Follow The Money video had I not assembled them? Wake up, origen.
“Listen to the way Samantha Lewis handled her tete-a-tete with Brian Chase (AHF General Counsel) on KPCC’s Airtalk late last year. She argued with professionalism and refrained from personally attacking him.” And what did that get us?
“The members of the LA City Council who accepted campaign donations from AHF and then put forth AHF’s proposal?”
I’m sorry but this does not mean anything. Politicians are the ultimate examples of deadbeat whores. They would accept money from ANYBODY. FSC could make a donation as well.
And just because a politician accepts AHF’s donations doesn’t mean they would do their bidding. Politicians are only accountable to their constituents, not their donors.
Michael said:
“Have you read this quote from Weinstein? “These people [adult film producers] are fabulously rich. Larry Flynt has made a large fortune by exploiting young people. His wife died of AIDS. He watched her wither and die. Shame on him. Why should we care whether their profits go down? Why would we put that on a higher level than the health of these young people?””
It sounds like an angry, shallow-minded and hypocritcal Weinstein is trying to take the focus away from himself. He wants to attack companies and try to make them look guilty for what he’s guilty of…. being fabulously rich, while ignoring the voices of the peformers and other industry people, themselves… AID$ is a $cam and so is the AHF.
origen Says:
““The members of the LA City Council who accepted campaign donations from AHF and then put forth AHF’s proposal?””
And this is the crux of the whole issue; legislation, advertising and belief systems “influenced”/controlled by the power politics of big money and those who hand it out. They are whores working for who pays them and where is Truth’s special interest group?
Here’s what Ahsley Blue had to say about AIM:
“….The workers were visibly flustered and held back nothing when it came to expressing how tired they were or how annoyed they felt. As untidy as the place was, we were all lucky to have it. The people who ran it did so because they cared. If it were’nt for AIM, who knows how many more cases of HIV would have effected the adult community? They even helped drug addicts with rehabilitation resources, in addition to giving them clean rigs. You can go in crying, bleeding, yelling, high, dripping in green stuff, and they will help you. No matter how ornery they can sometimes be, the people at AIM truly care about the talent and all of their fucked-up drama. The poor staff is flawed and criticized, abused and taken for granted every day. They are not super-heroes, just superb human beings when all is said and done. They were heroes to us. They do a job that I never fucking want to do. Listening to so many problems and flaky people, trying to heal them and send them back to the industry, prepped to get their next infection. It’s a thankless toil. Damn it, we needed AIM.”
This is a very interesting article: http://www.latimes.com/health/la-me-porn-hiv-20110602,0,5765708.story
It seems that LA County’s Dr. Jonathan Fielding might not be so happy with the performance of Dr. Peter “Born to Grovel Before AHF” Kerndt.
The article also includes this ridiculous line: “Critics say the proposed change could weaken efforts to halt the spread of HIV in the Los Angeles-based, $12-billion-a-year porn industry.”
Critics = AHF
Halt the spread? What spread?
$12-billion industry — where’s the source?
Interesting is right, Michael. In fact, this article makes me go “WTF?”. I suggest someone email the writer Ron Lin (email at the bottom of the article), who also quoted me in a couple of L.A. Times articles.
I need to re-read whatever the hell it is I just read.
Yeah, the language suggests there’s a “spread of AIDS” in the porn industry… Where’s the epidemic?
This seems to be a good example of hack authorities using the media to manipulate it’s messages. We need to question the “official sources say” crapola. We need to remember these authorities are not autonomous. They are subservient to politics and dollars… and when there’s big money involved there’s often if not usually corruption and bias, to put it lightly.
“$12-billion-a-year porn industry”.
What’s the estimated value of the AID$ Industry, btw?
Is one industry trying to make another industry it’s bitch?
This article links to another article by Ron Lin, which reads: “Los Angeles County declines to force condom use in porn films- Health department officials say such a requirement, sought by an AIDS activist group, must come from the California Legislature. And no lawmaker has stepped up”.
Good. It sounds like LA County is doing the right thing and playing “pass the buck” on this issue. I hope this pursuit of the condom laws issue goes on as long as the pursuit of a cure for AIDS. It may!
Btw, I can’t emphasize this enough. To all people who are or know someone who is “HIV+”, PLEASE ask the authorities who told you you were positive to identify what SPECIFIC makers they have used to determine your “+” status… AND THEN… find a physician who uses a different standard of measurement (different proteins/markers)… and RE-TEST!. And just to be on the safe side, don’t tell them you’re “+” because according to another lab in another place you may be negative! It doesn’t hurt to verify, does it?
If you’ve seen the documentary “House of Numbers” you’ll understand exactly what I’m talking about.
(specific markeRs that should’ve read)
I just finished listening to the BBC’s “On Assignment”. They covered the condom debate in the California adult industry. Shelly Lubben, Brain Chase, Larry Flynt, and Bobby Starr (among others) were featured.
Everyone should check it out. I’ll post a link in the comment below.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00gx5fw
Thanks, origen.
What do think, Michael?
85% of the world’s porn is created here? Not if condoms legislation were to pass.
“I’m just stabbing at the beast, making it bleed to death” says Shelley!
Yeah, 85% of the world’s porn.
Which makes me think. How has European production suffered in the midst of porn’s decline. Back between 2002-2007 they were competing head to head with American gonzo. It seems to me that they suffered more than production studios here and might be dying to get an competitive edge.
Not that things are safer in Europe….I doubt they are given the decentralized organization.
Anyone know? Pepe?
One thing about Euro porn is that the girls are way hotter overall then the american girls. They are clean looking and few have implants or tats everywhere. Just beautiful women having sex on film.
Our american girls too often are Frankensteinettes made in a lab (bottle blonds with implants, botox or other kinds of plastic surgery and tattoos all over the place).
My 2 cents: Having lived in England, I can tell you that they are a distinctly irreligious people, and as soon as they heard “stab the beast in seven places until it bleeds to death” they immediately pegged her as a looney — just as the audience did at the Cambridge Union. In England, one keeps one’s religious views out of public debate.
Also, it’s not 85% of the world’s porn, it’s 85% of the world’s porn MOVIES that this report claims derives from the US.
I also think Bobbi Starr was terrific, and Flynt was clear and consistent. Beyond that, it was the same old bullshit from the same old bullshitters.
Why does Shelley say that ALL performers hate what they do and that they ALL do drugs in order to be able to do what they do? ALL? Aren’t blanket statements like these, speaking on ALL other peoples’s behalf, CREDIBILITY ASSASSINS… OR TRUTH ASSASSINS?
It’s called projection. To quote Maxxx Peters: “Where before she was projecting the image of the father she wished she had onto a California pimp, now she’s projecting the image of herself, the girl she wants to save, onto every woman in the industry.”
Is it any surprise that Shelley ended up in the world (and business) of faith? Faith supercedes rational judgment, in that it’s blasphemy to even question the validity of what you’re being told. Faith-based arguments cannot stand up to logical examination — and they don’t have to!
Quantum physics has proven a few things. A couple of them are:
a. Life/energy does not die. It only is transferred.
b. The observer affects/changes the observed. What is observed depends on who or what is observing it. And always remember that, if/when someone is trashing you.
Religion (like authoritarianism), however, relies on absolutes.
And, to once again quote Ernest Greene, “If there’s one thing we should have learned over the past eight years, it’s that really, really foolish ideas have a durable appeal to a lot of people who stand ready to be fooled.”
Michael, you have GOT to see “X-men First Class”. Yeah, its your standard Hollywood blockbuster but I got a feeling you, in particular, will like it.
Actually, Jeremy, both points are corollaries to Newton’s 3rd Law of Motion and the First Law of Thermodynamics…
@ Karmafan, yes, the girls have less tats and need less makeup but their bodies don’t really do anything for me. I like a real woman with curves–and the Europeans abhor big asses.
And that’s just going against evolution….
Interesting trend that’s going on in the US. The US used to be like Europe. Big asses were a bad thing. Now women are getting butt IMPLANTS.
What’s going on here? What’s with the shift in popularity? Personally, I think its all due to the rise of the Hispanic-American population since Latin America always liked their women curvy.
@origen — Thanks for the recommendation; I will check it out after Tuesday’s meeting.
And, to paraphrase “The Outlaw Josey Wales”, there is iron in your words of ass.
I like big asses too. From what I have read on other forums the vast consensus seems to be the fans are sick of implant babes full of tats.
Yes Origen they correlate. In terms of the observer affecting the observed, there have been experiments with water where a person thinks or labels a positive word like “love” to the water and they discover the molecular structure is beautiful with a unique snowflake-like structure, whereas hateful thoughts and emotions cause the molecular structure of the water to look like extremely distorted pieces of broken glass, and the like. Interesting, especially in lieu of how we’re made up of mostly water.
Yes Origen they correlate. In terms of the observer affecting the observed, there have been experiments with water where a person thinks or labels a positive word like “love” to the water and they discover the molecular structure is beautiful with a unique snowflake-like structure, whereas hateful thoughts and emotions cause the molecular structure of the water to look like extremely distorted pieces of broken glass, and the like. Interesting, especially in lieu of the fact that we’re made up of mostly water.
(strange, looks like this comment came in twice)
Interesting, Jeremy. Do you have a link to those experiments. I would like to check it out…
@Origen
I think a lot of dudes have always secretly liked phat asses. It just wasn’t cool to say so until hip-hop culture gave it the green light. Where it used to mean you were a fatty chick thrilla’ (regardless of how much she weighs), it now means that you have similar qualities to your rap and hip-hop icons.
I always loved big asses. When I was a kid I used to watch figure skating just for the nice big-ass shots you’d get here and there. My mom would always make fun of me because she knew I had no reason to enjoy figure skating outside of it’s voyeuristic appeal.
Origen, I’ve got a copy of Masaru Emoto’s “The True Power of Water” and I highly recommend it, and/or other books by him. His work is also shown in the quantum physics documentary “What the Bleep? – Down The Rabbit Hole”.
always loved women with big-asses too–especially the nice thick legs on figure skaters. Cool mom for knowing what you were thinking and still letting you watch.
I grew up in a Mexican neighborhood in Chicago so the ultimate fantasy were Latina women in tight jeans. They still turns me on the most to this day.
The BIG question, however, IS… At what point does “PHAT” become just plain ol’ “FAT”?
Shit, Jeremy, you are a well-spring of knowledge sometimes. He seems like a cool dude. I gotta read his books, especially as I plan to study Reiki sometime in the future…
As for your question as to when does phat become fat? That’s a good question. I am very flexible in my attraction to women so I do think some fat chicks are sexy.
To me, a woman with an ass larger than 52 inches is fat.
Actually, 52 inches might be fat. I guess 48 is a proper limit…
I hope everyone will come out Tuesday the 7th to learn your rights to be protected in the workplace at the Calosha meeting.
If anyone needs a ride or help from Pink Cross, please let us know at info@thepinkcross.org
Blessings and Happy Sunday,
Shelley
Don’t you worry, Shelley, Danny Wylde and I are meeting with more than a dozen performers tonight who will not only be attending the OSHA meeting to tell THEIR TRUTH and put the lie to your BS, but who will also be facilitating the attendance of MANY more adult film industry workers on Tuesday.
They really didn’t like hearing that you call them “a bunch of drug addicts” and “young, dumb females who couldn’t read a contract,” who “can’t even understand words like ‘litigation’ or ‘arbitration.'” They are quite determined to prove you a liar, as well as a demagoguing, mercenary opportunist who is exploiting a crisis to further her own ends.
BTW, Shelley, I’ve been talking to your high school classmates — when you talk about all your reproductive health issues (that you now blame on the porn industry), why didn’t you ever mention the pregnancy and miscarriage you had in senior year of high school? You remember your old boyfriend, don’t you? His name stars with an “R.”
That was 1986, and you were ALREADY having reproductive health issues. Before you even left home. Then, according to your book and other statements, you had TWO MORE miscarriages (from prostitution acts) prior to your pregnancy (from a prostitution act) in 1987 which led to your daughter’s birth in June 1988. Your FIRST miscarriage was SEVEN YEARS before your ever walked onto a porn set, and many months before you became a prostitute. How convenient that you leave that out.
I’ll be at the meeting on Tuesday. I sure hope you’re not planning on blaming the adult film industry on your reproductive health problems. You never know who else might be showing up to call you out.
Blessings and Happy Sunday,
MW
OMG.
Didn’t expect to read that Michael.
My mind is officially blown. I don’t know what to think anymore. This whole thing is so wrong. Everyone just needs to tell the truth about what they really want and why.
This is bad.
@Monica – What I want is to see a group of performers — those who have the most at stake — confidently express their own views, fears, concerns and ideas in an open forum as part of a fair, transparent process. I have no power to do anything else — all I can do is facilitate; to boost their confidence and encourage them to attend and to speak their mind. EVERY PERFORMER WHO IS AVAILABLE SHOULD ATTEND.
And Monica, every word of what I wrote about Shelley in high school is documented by multiple independent witnesses who have nothing at all to do with the adult entertainment industry. I didn’t lead them, or even ask them — they offered the information, unprompted.
When Shelley appeared on the Dr. Phil show in January 2006, she had not yet fully developed her “porn is to blame” story. Back then she only claimed she had contracted AN STD (not multiple STDs) from sex work (not from porn — from ALL her sex work) which she found out about “later in life.” Shelley found out about her extremely common HPV approx. five years after leaving sex work. No mention of herpes.
In one of her oldest radio interviews, she cites a car accident that she survived as the reason why she quit porn — not herpes. She said the car was totaled, and when she went to the lot to see it the next day, G-d spoke to her and told her to pop out the tape in the cassette player. It was “Last Chance” by Duran Duran. She took this to mean that G-d almighty was giving her one last chance, and so she quit porn. (I’d be happy to email you, or anyone else, the audio clip.)
She wrote that she had her first herpes outbreak a little over a week after shooting her gangbang (where she also claims she was raped — see her UCLA School of Law presentation, November 2010).
Yet multiple witnesses place her at a party at John Stagliano’s house SEVERAL weeks after the gangbang shoot, where she was friendly, looking for work and generally networking within the porn business. Patrick Collins, Bruce Seven and others were there. She even brought a girlfriend to the party.
When the Army tested her for STDs in 1996, they determined she did NOT have herpes.
Shelley has never offered ANY proof that she EVER had herpes, let alone that she contracted it in porn. (When I asked her for proof she ever had it, she said, “Prove I didn’t.”)
And now she claims that it was miraculously cured.
Do you smell what I smell?
I smell a shit load of greed on both sides of the equation.
Pro-porn | Anti-porn … it all just smells beyond foul.
Lesson learned from my perspective: stay away from all of it.
🙁
You may be right. But at least porn never claimed to be a non-profit operation. It’s a business.
My dad’s a “Reiki Master”, Origen. He “taught” me it as well.
Yea – a business with tentacles reaching into a ton of illegal activity – prostitution just to name one element.
If this is true about Lubben, I’m disappointed 🙁 I read her book, and if that book isn’t the real story I hope that in time she does put out the real story.
Again I don’t think this info needed to be posted on a comment thread on lukeisback Michael – that was very insensitive and I wonder how well you’d fair if all your personal business was aired. Mine has been and it’s a really hard process to go through.
anti-porn / pro-porn – it’s just 2 sides of the same dirty coin in my view at this stage. It all needs to be cleaned up and re-worked.
Monica — It was not I who made Mrs. Lubben’s reproductive health issues, actual and alleged, part of the public debate. It was she.
Shelley has made her reproductive health, and other personal health problems, THE CENTER POINT OF HER ARGUMENT. The entire basis for her “standing” as an anti-porn advocate is “I was there, I was harmed, I know.”
She just released a video where she is SITTING WITH HER FEET IN STIRRUPS AT THE GYNECOLOGIST’S OFFICE talking to the camera about her miscarriages, her cervix, etc…
This is not her “personal business.” SHE has made it public. She uses it to raise money.
It is she who uses PICTURES OF HER OWN MINOR CHILDREN in her campaign. If there were REALLY all those diabolical fiends out there threatening her, WHY in G-d’s name would she do that? She has also released her home address — it’s the office of her “foundation.”
For the record, I have NEVER used any photo of her kids — even her adult daughter — in my criticism against her. I never have and never will. They are innocent victims of their mother’s mania.
And honestly, do you think Shelley would ever cede any ground, or recant anything?
Virtually everything in her book has been distorted in some way. Even her wedding day (“a harsh winter’s day”): the temperature range that day was between 54 and 63 degrees. Everything in her book services the mythology she has created.
The facts deleted from her book are also revealing. She writes that Gary lost his job not long after they wed. She leaves out the part that she used to say — he lost his job because he was high on meth at work. She also claims today, ““He was a Christian man. I felt the love of Jesus Christ from him and he rescued me when I couldn’t help myself.” In truth he was a meth dealer who met her at the Boar’s Head bar in Covina, who told her he needed a stripper for a bachelor party!
I hear what you’re saying Michael and I’m in agreement with you that some points in her book may have been exaggerated or dramatized (I did think it was a good and inspiring read) – however my point is that MAYBE her book was written as she feels / remembers the events having happened.
I still don’t know about the whole “blast from the past” thing you’re doing – having a pregnancy not work out is a really sensitive issue for a woman and I don’t think you needed to bring that up at this stage here.
I’m questioning many elements in regards to porn/anti-porn issues right now – and in regards to Lubben, I think that if what you’re saying is true, she may never have really psychologically healed from certain events in her life.
I REALLY think that you may want to start looking into the history and thoughts of a man named Dr. Rick (Richard) Fitzgibbons – you can find links to him if you visit anteroompictures dot com (click on resources) – (I mentioned him on a couple of my blogs a while back).
I find this man and his theories / teachings rather disturbing (he believes homosexuality is a curable mental disorder / disease) and if what you’re saying about Lubben is true, then it’s very possible that she’s been psychologically conditioned (and dare I say manipulated) by this man.
Now I do feel that we all need to take accountability for our actions – so if what you’re saying is true about Lubben’s history – hopefully she’ll make it known.
Yea, I’m an idealist.
Interestingly Monica, it wasn’t long ago that The Cult of Psychiatry (aka American Psychological Association) had homosexuality defined as a “mental” disorder. Since 1973, however, it’s been redefined as just another variant of human normality.
Instead of such neanderthal mental gymnastics, we are now subjected to much greater leaps of mental acrobatics… such as we have now, with shrinks calling themselves “doctors”, perscribing lots and lots of drugs (Hey Big Pharm gives them a good kickback, plus it’s in their “How to be a good doctor” manuals) for EVERY NORMAL human mood… in other words, if you’re sad one moment, you better take these drugs for your “disorder”, or if you’re having trouble paying attention to your uber-boring textbook, you might have A.D.D., so here take these drugs, with 18 serious side-effects… Hey APA, “You’ve come a long way, baby” (sarcasm)!
You hit the nail on the head Jeremy – a lot of the psychiatric / psychological “scientific” practices are WRONG. Same goes for a lot of the religious views…
However there is one element in which they’re all RIGHT – they help people COPE with what’s going on here on this planet.
Lubben’s organization (as wrong as it may be in certain ways) provides a BALANCE to the whole pro / anti porn arena.
Michael – you are destroying a symbol of hope for a lot of women who want out. There HAS to be a balance and an exit program / strategy – Lubben is all porn has really got at this stage.
The other exit programs/groups are no better than hers and at LEAST she’s active in providing a bit of inspiration. By destroying / discrediting her, what’s left? A friend of mine brought up something called the PAW hotline to me, but that’s a very little known system.
There HAS TO BE an exit for women who need assistance in getting their life away from certain areas (and individuals) in adult entertainment and unless someone out there has an idea as to how a new exit program will be put in place and set up AND take responsibility to actually get it done – I think Lubben needs to be left alone.
Pro-porn has Hirsch & Flynt – let Anti-porn have Lubben
I like hitting the nail on the head. It’s much more effective that way. 😛
@Monica — I’m not saying Pink Cross should go out of business and Shelley should stop preaching her version of Christianity to those willing to listen, I’m saying, 1) vis-a-vis adult performers: caveat emptor, and 2) Lubben has so little credibility, and such a loose affiliation with the facts, that she should not be taken seriously in the world of public debate of important policy issues. She has been caught in lies regarding the adult industry — all of which serve to cast her as a victim and ALL performers as drug-addled, disease-ridden, stupid victims who don’t even know how to read a model release, and don’t understand words like “litigation” and “arbitration.”
Monica, are you smart enough to read a model release? Do you know what litigation is? Are you not offended at her characterization of you as any of the above? Do you not think that reinforcing those stereotypes HURTS performers should they ever seek to actually exit the industry and re-integrate into “civilian” society? Telling people they’re victims and idiots and slaves of satan, is wrong — especially when you claim you’re trying to “help.” How about encouraging people to take responsibility for their lives?
You won’t find THAT in her book. NOTHING was her fault.
And, again, I take issue with your conclusion that “having a pregnancy not work out is a really sensitive issue for a woman and I don’t think you needed to bring that up at this stage here.” Why? SHE brings the subject up all the time. At every chance. How many times have you heard about her fucking uterus? No one has the right to bring up personal medical matters and then hide behind “sensitivity” concerns. That’s nonsense. And besides that point – -she has obfuscated the truth. You’re an intelligent person — ask yourself why?
Shelley freely admits to having premarital sex since age 16 —
To having been a prostitute —
To having two miscarriages at age 18 to 19 from prostitution acts, and having a baby from a prostitution act at age 20.
So, why would she conceal her miscarriage, at age 17/18, of a pregnancy from an unnamed boyfriend?
The most obvious answer is: to HIDE the inconvenient fact that the problems with her reproductive organs PRE-DATE her involvement in sex work. This first miscarriage was not only 7 years before she walked onto a porn set, it was also many months before she left home and became a prostitute.
As for Dr. Rick (Richard) Fitzgibbons, he is a despicable person (whom Lubben adores), but Lubben’s problems with reality — and her constant revisions to and mythologizing of her own story (The Gospel of Shelley Lubben)– long pre-date her association with him. In fact, it dates back to her time at the Champions Centre in Tacoma, WA. Her pastor from Champions Centre is the FIRST person she thanks in her book. Note what she writes — that he taught her how to live “the Champion Life.” Not “a” Champion Life — THE Champion Life. It’s a program, and, in my opinion, she was programmed.
I agree there should be an support / exit system for adult performers and sex workers — and there are several. She has NO QUALIFICATIONS ti counsel anyone. She only holds a degree from an unaccredited ONLINE college — in theology. Saying that she’s better than nothing is like saying that, in the absence of a nearby hospital someone should drink some snake oil sold out of the back of a carnival caravan.
“Michael – you are destroying a symbol of hope for a lot of women who want out.”
Yeah, to hell with all of that willpower shit. Everybody has the power to help themselves within them. Even drug addicts. It’s a matter of cutting enablers out of your life. You don’t need Shelley, Jesus, or anything else that’s phony or fictional to help yourself. While it’s good to have support, it’s the individual who always makes the important decisions for their own lives in the end. Monica, you should be familiar with this. Although I think you’ve gone quite Looney Tunes as of late, it does appear that you’ve done everything for yourself, even if you resorted to taking up religion. Jesus didn’t help you. You helped yourself. Fuck a bunch of Lubben.
Sometimes it takes someone to help you find the confidence to make a change and help yourself – again, if Lubben is “taken out” who amongst you is going to take the responsibility to create a proper exit program?
Are you going to do it Michael? Are you Fartz? Will the FSC? Who? I suggest you watch my Monica At Home broadcast from yesterday.
Monica, if ever you needed proof of your own intelligence, validity, capacity to love and be loved, inner beauty, or that you were worth saving, you did not need Lubben. All you needed was a mirror.
It is in the interest of people like Lubben to tell you that you need THEM. You do not. Actually, they need you. That’s why Lubben rushed to get herself phographed with you, and to put you on video. It is she who is a very long way from not needing external validation. Think about it.
Sadly, however, for sick, damaged people like her, nothing can ever fill that hole. The only thing that can complete you is being able to love yourself. I don’t think she can look in the mirror and like what she sees; I really don’t.
Fartz, I completely support the notion of individual accountability but willpower is overrated–especially when it comes to substance abuse. Sometimes, people NEED love and social support. I think the science would back me up on this one.
@origen – People need genuine, selfless love and real support. Flinging one’s frustrations and emotions outward will not engender those positive feelings in others; instead, such actions simply attract the worst people and the most destructive relationships.
Again, when the rabbit screams, the fox comes a-runnun’ — but not to help. The scumbags in and around PWL, etc, squeezed Monica and then squeezed harder — and look who came a-runnin’.
More in keeping with the original topic of this thread —
On the heels of last week’s report of a “shake-up” at LA County Dept of Public Health’s STD division (headed by Dr. Peter Kerndt) comes this gem:
http://fscblogger.wordpress.com/2011/06/06/study-finds-la-county-health-dept-reports-on-adult-industry-sti-data-flawed-‘without-basis-in-science’/
http://business.avn.com/articles/video/Doctor-s-Report-Blasts-Health-Department-s-STD-Statistics-437880.html
Mike, I think Monica’s comments reflect how your tit-for-tat attack strategy might be sub-optimal (to say the least).
@origen – Since it was not my comments that turned Monica pro-Lubben, or sympathetic to Lubben, I don’t see how I’ve failed in any way — except in your eyes, perhaps. I can live with that.
Monica’s distaste for my comment may have as much to do with her belief (which she repeats above) that Lubben provides some worthwhile purpose, as it does the substance of the comment itself. Monica herself has certainly said and written and revealed FAR WORSE of people she despises for one reason or another.
And in any case, I didn’t post it strictly for Monica’s sake — I posted it as a resource to anyone considering believing her accounts of her own life. There will be many many more to come. That was actually a very small one in comparison to some of the revelations I have in store. True information about a public figure who regularly speaks on matters of great public interest.
Lubben’s veracity (and lack thereof) and her credibility are CRUCIAL matters. I suppose a strategy of leaving lies and distortions unchallenged by facts would be more to your liking? Lubben calls adult performers “a bunch of drug addicts” on the BBC and I’m only allowed to respond with “no they’re not!”
BULLSHIT.
I respect you and your opinions, origen, but please spare me your evaluations of my tactics.
A little song about criticism:
“You know the measuring pole, the merry boots of clay /
I’ve heard it all before, you’ll say it anyway”
“I respect you and your opinions, origen, but please spare me your evaluations of my tactics.”
Okay, okay…
In other news (and more on topic), have you seen this?
A New Study Finds LA County Health Dept Reports on Adult Industry STI Data are Flawed, and “Without Basis in Science”
http://business.avn.com/articles/video/Doctor-s-Report-Blasts-Health-Department-s-STD-Statistics-437880.html
What? Politically motivated junk science from LA County Dept of Public Health and UCLA?
I HATE how AVN is NSFW….I’m reviewing the report now…
To Michael Whiteacre:
You’re right in regards to me getting myself together. I really did only need to look in the mirror. The confidence I’ve lacked has been due to my own worst enemy – myself.
Circumstance, experiences and people have all added and subtracted from my own self view…sometimes I justifiably and unjustifiably give others credit for certain feelings I’ve had, but I’m still growing – and I’m only human.
To Origen:
I agree to an extent in regards to the “tit for tat” attack tactics that are occurring – I don’t think it’s right – but I have been guilty of using the same tactics because well – sometimes you HAVE TO.
Look…if what Michael is revealing is true (and he seems pretty logic based as an individual so I have no reason not to believe him as of current) then what’s going on in regards to the Pink Cross (and others they are affiliated with) is pretty bad because if you’re saying you’re out to help others that’s what you should REALLY be doing – especially if a lot of money is involved.
I do want everything to be rainbows and unicorns but as reality is settling into my personal universe I’m starting to see that sometimes the unicorn has to be revealed as nothing more than a Donkey – if that.
——
My sympathy and empathy is quickly dwindling as more pieces of this puzzle are coming together. I have a feeling that certain things I’m beginning to hypothesize in regards to PWL and certain anti porn agendas are going to come to light 🙁 I did read the article this morning Michael referenced in regards to Dr. Mayer – it said quite a bit…
Regardless this is a really bad situation because not many people STILL seem to genuinely care about the majority of the performers and what it’s like when you decide you want to do something different or if you want to keep going but are surrounded by people who don’t have your best interest at heart. Maybe that’s just how it has to be though. I wanted the truth and I’m starting to receive it – it’s just much more unattractive than I’d anticipated.
If I find out anyone who went out of their way to gain my trust (especially considering what I’ve been dealing with as of late), did in fact use me for financial gain (or otherwise) it will be a very very very bad situation for them. 🙁
Here’s a link to a SFW site: http://www.examiner.com/sex-relationships-in-national/report-l-a-county-public-health-data-on-porn-industry-sti-rates-flawed
Thanks Michael, people don’t need to see Lisa Ann’s plastic juggs…
I read the article but I yawned. We definitely know that WE DON’T KNOW STI rates for the Industry. You have pointed that out many times on this forum and even Joe Know concedes that point.
There is suspicion, based on anecdotes, that suggests that the infected population might be abnormally high but until we have a comprehensive Industry study, we can never know for certain.
Overall, this is a solid plus for the porn side, though. (Just between you and me, I hate the word ‘porn’. It sounds ugly. I prefer ‘erotica’ but that sounds ridiculously euphemistic since everyone says ‘porn’.)
I read the article but I yawned. We definitely know that WE DON’T KNOW STI rates for the Industry. You have pointed that out many times on this forum and even Joe Know concedes that point.
There is suspicion, based on anecdotes, that suggests that the infected population might be abnormally high but until we have a comprehensive Industry study, we can never know for certain.
Overall, this is a solid plus for the porn side, though. (Just between you and me, I hate the word ‘porn’. It sounds ugly. I prefer ‘erotica’ but that sounds ridiculously euphemistic since everyone says ‘porn’.)
@Monica and origen — Every person has worth, and every adult performer’s rights, opinions, fears and concerns are important. In fact, since they have the most to lose in this process, in my view their opinions matter most of all.
Last night Danny Wylde and I were honored to organize a meeting of concerned current adult film performers (XXX and fetish) in order to hear their concerns, and help them come up with concise ways to express their own feelings and thoughts about the OSHA action, and AHF. Danny and I provided all the refreshments, print-outs of relevant documents under discussion, etc… This was not done under the auspices of any organization, and no agents and no representatives of FSC were allowed to be present. Two journalists were there, but not to report on the meeting (this was made clear) but only to offer information and first-hand perspective on the process that they have reported on over the years. We wanted the performers to feel free and comfortable to say what they really thought and to ask any questions that wished.
I feel the meeting was extremely productive. There are lot more performers willing to be activist than you’d imagine — they, like anyone else, sometimes need encouragement and a feeling that someone actually cares what they have to say.
I once again encourage ALL adult performers to become more active and to stand up for their rights. Their voices need to be heard. Tomorrow, I think you’ll see the performers THEMSELVES put the lie to the politically- (and financially-) motivated argument that these actions are in the best interests of the performing population, and industry workers as a class.
This condom issue makes me think of helmet laws for motorcycles, which is appropriate since AHF is trying to make a law to cover my helmet.
19 States have helmet laws that exempt adult riders, riders over the age of majority — 18 years old and over. Those states are:
Alaska, Arizona, Connecticut, Delaware, Hawaii, Idaho, Indiana, Kansas, Maine, Minnesota, Montana, New Mexico, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, South Dakota, Utah, Wisconsin and Wyoming.
4 States have 100% free helmet laws :
Colorado, Illinois, Iowa and New Hampshire
So human sovereignty, in some places and ways still exists in this country. We should fight for ours. Of course, if you want to wear a helmet in one of the free States, it’s your right.
I have a friend that is a RN in the emergency room at a hospital near me. Do you know what the nurses call motorcycle riders that don’t wear a helmet?
Organ Donors…
I’m sure, yet almost half of the United States have no full helmet laws. And if they’re allowed to ride “unprotected”, so should we.
@origen
Hate to say it, but I think you might be full of shit on this one… Im gonna have to agree with Michael… Though I do think Monica’s judgementalness is disgusting…
Monica’s been INTENTIONALLY put through the ringer in the last several months, so I definitely give her a pass. She was preyed upon by true online predators.
She’s never been anything but kind to me, and I don’t have a single bad word to say about her personally. Never have.
While I completely agree with you Michael, I don’t think anyone has the right to publicly misinterpret groups and claim some kind of subserviant membership of others….
No, I absolutely do not think doing that is right, but I don’t see Monica as having been malicious — unlike others whom I have had NO problem taking to task (as we all know too well – LOL) — I see her a someone trying to make sense of what happened, AND to make sense of this porno bubble, generally. There’s no question that’s what she was doing with her investigation of PWL – and she came up with a lot of good stuff. We exchanged messages back and forth on it weeks/months ago, and while I didn’t subscribe to every one of her conclusions, she was motivated and savvy enough to put things together that, frankly, I don’t think I would have been able to spot.
She was tracked, hunted and wounded for no good reason other than she gave them an opening and took the bait. Sure she made some mistakes; we all do. But they brutalized her. Everyone has a breaking point, especially when you’re in the sights of practiced hustlers and predators.
That’s the thing — people who are victimized can often feel really ashamed that they were “so foolish” to be taken in. That’s nonsense. It’s similar to a rape victim feeling shame or guilt. Hustlers and con artists and sadists are PROFESSIONALS at what they do. If they mean to hurt you for kicks, they know how. If they mean to gain your confidence and swindle you, they know how. It’s what they do.
I apologize for speaking about you in third person while you’re on the thread, Monica.
To Michael:
No problem in regards to you speaking / writing about me here – actually thanks for having such a great grasp in regards to what I’ve been dealing with.
Good luck to everyone attending the meeting tomorrow – I have a great feeling about the outcome – I won’t be there, but I’m certain that the party with the most genuine agenda will prevail.
Condoms or no condoms – just please God weed the liars, con artists and people trapped in a prison of greed out of tomorrow’s situation (and every situation having to do with these issues thereafter).
Here’s a few more of my thoughts:
You can’t have con-artists and liars without greed, and vice versa, Monica. That would essentially take everyone out of the equation and no one should show up tomorrow, then. Politicians work for special interests giving them big money. Doctors perscribe on behalf of Big Pharm who give them kickbacks. AHF works on behalf of Big Pharm, which gives them many millions per year. Greed starts at the very top… money buys votes, sophists and their “opinions”, controls and cherry picks it’s own “independent studies”… advertisers and their affiliates control the airwaves, and thus, “You gotta fight… for your right… to paaaaarty!”
They’re probably intent on lulling us to sleep reading off the official regulations for a while, then hope most of us are konked out when it’s time for whatever window we have to speak on our own behalf!