Press Release from AIDS Heathcare Foundation
AHF to Dr. Fielding: Shut Down Non-Condom Porn Sets NOW
LA Weekly Ad and Online Campaign Launches Today; Supporters Asked to Contact Dr. Jonathan Fielding, Director of LA’s Dept. of Public Health, Urge Him to “Enforce Condom Use in Porn NOW!”
“What Else Are You Waiting For to Protect the Public’s Health?” Asks AHF
LOS ANGELES–(BUSINESS WIRE)–AIDS Healthcare Foundation (AHF) today launched an advertising and online e-advocacy campaign aimed at urging Dr. Jonathan Fielding, M.D., M.P.H., Director of Los Angeles Department of Public Health, to shut down Los Angeles-area adult film shoots that do not use condoms. An ad, appearing in today’s LA Weekly, lists the organizations that have come out in support of mandatory condom use in porn, including: Los Angeles Times, American Medical Association, American Public Health Association and the California STD Controllers Association. The ad then poses the question to Dr. Fielding: “What else are you waiting for to protect the public’s health?” and directs viewers to call Dr. Fielding at his office (213) 240-8117 or to go to www.aidshealth.org to send an e-letter. In conjunction with the ad, AHF has also launched an online advocacy campaign asking the Foundation’s tens of thousands of e-community members to contact Dr. Fielding.
“What else are you waiting for to protect the public’s health?”
“AHF calls on Dr. Fielding to join the growing chorus of thought leaders and health organizations who support mandatory condom use in adult films, and shut down all non-condom porn shoots in the County,” said Michael Weinstein, President of AIDS Healthcare Foundation. “Unfortunately, despite clear regulatory requirements and actions taken by public officials, the adult film industry remains convinced it is above the law and continues to place its own interests above the health of performers. Dr. Fielding and County Public Health have done little to address the fact that the health and safety of adult film workers are being placed in jeopardy on film sets throughout Los Angeles County every day. At this point, inaction on the part of the County can only be seen as disregard for the lives of the thousands of young people who work in the industry as well as the health of the public at large.”
Earlier this month, a motion introduced by L.A. City Councilmember Bill Rosendahl directed the City Attorney to report back in 45 days “to explain the mechanisms necessary to enable the City’s film permit process to require workplace safety in the production of all adult films.” The motion concludes: “The producers of adult films are required by California Code of Regulations Title 8, Section 5903 et seq. to employ barrier protection, including without limitation condoms, to shield performers from contact with potentially infectious material during the production of adult films. I THEREFORE MOVE that the City Council request the City Attorney to report back within 45 days to explain the mechanisms necessary to enable the City’s film permit process to require workplace safety in the production of all adult films.”
That action came on the heels of explosive news that L.A. health officials closed the Adult Industry Medical Healthcare Foundation (AIM)—a Sherman Oaks clinic funded by and serving the adult film industry—after California state officials denied AIM a community clinic license. The facility had been operating without a proper license for over a decade. AHF had called for County health officials to shut down the clinic after Derrick Burts, a 24 year-old adult film performer who tested HIV-positive on October 9th, spoke out regarding the poor treatment he received at AIM. Burts, who became known as the industry’s ‘Patient Zeta’ after the news first broke, spoke about the harsh treatment, neglect and indifference he experienced from AIM officials after his diagnosis, and he also championed the use of condoms in all adult film productions to prevent STD and HIV transmission among performers.
STDs in the Industry in Los Angeles County
Los Angeles County’s Department of Public Health is aware of an ongoing and pervasive sexually transmitted disease crisis in LA’s pornography industry, a fact that is well documented. DPH has cited numerous figures confirming an STD epidemic among performers in adult films, including the fact that performers in hardcore pornography are ten times more likely to be infected with a sexually transmitted disease than members of the population at large.
According to figures cited by DPH, there were 2,013 documented cases of Chlamydia among LA porn performers between 2003 and 2007. In the same period, 965 cases of gonorrhea were documented. Many performers suffer multiple infections. In the period April 2004 to March 2008 there have been 2,847 STD infections diagnosed among 1,884 performers in the hardcore industry in LA County. DPH attributes the epidemic of sexually transmitted diseases in the porn industry to a lack of protective equipment for partners, including condoms. The agency recommends condoms be used during production, but has never taken steps to ensure their use, or to protect the performers who are essentially required to endanger their health in order to remain employed.
“This is not just about one industry, but about our entire community, as the spread of disease among adult film performers endangers themselves as well as their sexual partners in and outside the industry,” added AHF’s Weinstein. “Los Angeles County Public Health officials cannot keep passing the buck on this by playing ping pong on this with the state and the industry itself. That is why we are calling on Dr. Fielding to take action now to protect adult film industry workers and the public at large by shutting down all non-condom porn sets immediately.”
About AIDS Healthcare Foundation
AIDS Healthcare Foundation (AHF), the largest global AIDS organization, currently provides medical care and/or services to more than 140,000 individuals in 22 countries worldwide in the US, Africa, Latin America/Caribbean, the Asia/Pacific Region and Eastern Europe. www.aidshealth.org
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NL- In response to this newest AD campaign, Film Maker Michael Whiteacre put up the teaser for his soon to be released Film "The Devil and Shelley Lubben" You can watch the clip here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZmLv1w4RZg&hd=1
Shelley must be praying to god right now to strike down Michael Whiteacre with a bolt of lightning as we speak.
AHF reeks, there is something here not being told. And what will AHF do if adult shoots move to areas just outside the LA area, like shooting in San Diego or Bakersfield or of course San Francisco.
@Karmafan The skies are clear. And, for the record, I believe in God, AND, I absolutely DO believe in salvation. What I don’t believe is that a fair, just and loving God, one who is omnipotent and omniscient, who knows all, sees all, and can see into the future, would tell Shelley Lubben to start a website so that she could put nearly 40% of the charitable donations made by honest, generous, Christian-minded people INTO HER OWN POCKET. And that’s not even including her travel expenses, meals, hotels and incidentals. That’s what I don’t believe.
Julie Meadows and I have uncovered explosive material. We have hours of footage. Interviews. We’ve researched public records going back decades. I’ve been traveling around the state shooting video.
One thing we’ve found — people do talk.
This one’s for Mrs. Lubben:
Like the glaze covering an earthen vessel are fervent lips with an evil heart.
Whoever hates disguises himself with his lips and harbors deceit in his heart;
Though their speech is charming, do not believe them, for seven abominations fill their hearts.
Proverbs 26:23-25
Larry,
How abut a short drive on the 118 to Simi Valley.(Ventura County)
Michael, if Shelley has violated any laws then report her to the proper authorities. Until you do that you sound like someone just looking for attention and using Shelley to get it. That goes double for Julie meadows. Her videos about Shelley’s financials are interesteing, so why hasnt she contacted an authorities about these accusations that she is making? You dont see the AHF and Pink cross just writing on websites and youtube, they are going to the authorities, and they are getting things done. ACTIONS speak louder than words. Lets see some ACTION!!!!
@joe Know – How do you know that Julie and I (and others) have not done just that? The wheels of justice turn slowly, my friend.
What I see AHF doing is using its millions of dollars in available funds to lobby for a position that best suits AHF. I cannot compete with then full-page ad for full-page ad. This is a grass roots effort.
I still believe in the power of ideas. If the idea is strong enough, then hopefully a groundswell can be created. I put the information out there, and the players can do with it as they will.
I don’t think that the gay community would be all-too-pleased to learn that AHF is pals with Mrs. Lubben. Gays and lesbians to whom I’ve shown the Lubben/Weinstein materials have been outraged. Time will tell.
The action you seek will have to come from the public at large — from people who withhold donations from both AHF and Pink Cross — and from the adult industry which MUST learn to fight back.
As for me “just looking for attention” for myself — I have no product to sell. When this expose of mine and Julie’s is complete, the finished product will be free for everyone to see. This is an act on conscience.
I see just the opposite. I see Shelley’s donations going UP when she shows how she is being persecuted by folks like you. This is better advertising for her base of support than she could ever pay for.
And AHF has made no secret of their affiliation with Pink Cross,hell, they appear at press conferences together, their affiliation is no secret.
Most grass roots efforts are in SUPPORT of something, not AGAINST someithing. You need to take your efforts to SUPPOrt something, not bring something down.
I tink you wuld be better off building support for perfomrers, not trying to bring down Shelly and AFH.
Have you ever seen Shelleys youtube page,,and the millions of hits she gets from her supporters? You dont think that she isnt going to use your videos to show how much she is attacked by the evil porn industry? And by ‘use’ I mean she just has to mention your videos, ask her THOUSANds of subscribers to watch your attacks, and then ask for donations.
Thats why the industry is loosing this battle. The industry is just out gunned, out financed, and fragmented, and the opposition is organized, funded, and fighting a cohesive well thought out campaign. And if you think that AFH has pulled any of their aces from up their sleeves yet, I think you would be mistaken.
I wonder why cameron ried insists that he got infected on a shoot in FLORIDA(wich is under FEDERAL OSHA). If you recall,in the Brooke Ashley case, the attorneys for Brooke NEVER even submitted any eveidence of any kind that anybody she EVER worked with was HIV+,,,and she still won. NO EVIDENCE OF ANY KIND!!!! Maybe you could do a youtube video about that. No evidence of any kind, not one test, not one forged test, not won witness to testify of anybody being HIV+ and she still WINS!!!
@joe I wish I were at liberty to tell you all I know about this circus. Stay tuned.
There’s no point in ever trying to convince rabid anti-porners. For the zealots, it’s a religion (quite literally). But there’s a group of people who can be convinced when they see the facts, when they see that the story Lubben promotes does not add up.
AHF is simply grandstanding with this latest ad. If you read the relevant legal holdings from the actions which AHF has brought, and LOST, Dr. Fielding and LA County have no authority to do the things Weinstein is demanding. He can’t win in court so he’s making a lot of noise. It’s pure theater.
AHF takes a “no comment” stance vis-a-vis Lubben. I don’t think they knew the depth of her problems with reality back when Weinstein was still willing to be seen with her publicly. Now he dispatches underlings to sit on panels with her. They are keeping her at arms length. It’s a deal with the devil, to be sure.
As for grass roots efforts being mainly in support of things rather than opposing them, I’d urge you to examine the history of civil disobedience in this country, and others, my friend. I’d also add that this movement is very much in support of something — free speech, free thought, freedom of expression, free enterprise and more. Shelley Lubbben is small potatoes — she’s not even an Amiee Semple McPherson-level character. The real story here is how a cabal of interests (AHF, OSHA, UCLA, LA County Health) are lining up, and sharpening their knives to carve up the pie. Not to mention, the philosophical basis for their actions would make the US a child-safe day nursery.
Yes, the adult industry does need to stand together; I could not agree more. Apathy has, traditionally, been the industry’s greatest weakness. But if there ever was something to rally against, it’s Michael Weinstein on AHF. I pray that he has awakened a sleeping giant.
to compare what the porn industry is doing with the history of civil disobedience in this county is almost comical.
Is there any place in your argument for a safe workplace for porn perfomrers? Si there any place in your argument for the thousands, YES thousand of performers who have gotten std’s IN the industry? Is ther any place in your argument for the people who CHOOSE to PRODCUE pornography taking any resposibility for the illnesses that do certainly occure under their supervision, on the sets that they control, for the people that they pay to take risks that they certainly do know exist(why do producers demand tests if they dont acknoledge the risks that THEY are HIRING people to take)
And dont give me that loosing argument that other professions are also risky,,,YES they are,,,but they ALL offer rememdies when those risks become reality, and the porn employers do NOT….WE ALL KNOW THIS
I suggest you take a look at recent comments from Sharon Mitchell…”….These guys(adult film makers) think they can do anything. They think thisis the wild west.”
And if you think threatening to go underground and provide even less protection to performers is a winning hand then I’d love to play poker with you. Blackmail, hostage taking, and threatening even less protection for performers will NEVER be a winning argument.
I can see all these govnerment officials now (OSHA, Coounty,DHP) saying,,,’OH BOY, we better not do anything or the industry will just make it MORE unsafe for perfomrers, we better back off.
What does this stance say about the producers who openly threaten to make things WORSE for performers if anybody dares try to make things better for them? This argument just cant win, and if thats all you got, you aint got squat. Every time I see this argument I cant help but laugh, and think, this is what the billion dollar porn industry thinks of its poerformers. Diane Duke says the industry cares about its workers, then in the very next breath threatens to makethings more UNSAFE for them if anybodydares try to make things better. The ultimate hypocrisy.
Karfman,
Shelly is giving thanks for the advertising to her base of supporters that she is getting for free from Mr. Whiteacre. Like I said before, have you ever seen how effectivley SHelly uses YOUTUBE. MILLIONS of hits from thousand of subscribers on her channel. People who DONATE to her on a regular basis. When those supporter see this attack from the evil Mr Whiteacre the donations will come rolling in.
Her channel has over 3000 subscibers and her vidoes have over 2,000,000 views. Perhaps this wasnt the best venue for this fight to be taken to.
I wonder if Michael will give Shelley permission to put his video on her channel? She will certainly make the offer, and if he refuses she will certainly make her own video telling how he didnt have the guts to let her run his video, and if she does, she tells her folowers that ‘this is what I am up against, please donate now.” Rock,,,hardplace
@Michael,
But I MUST give you props, At least you are doing something, whic is alot more than alot of the industry can say.
This is going to come back to hit them in the face like an erect penis! They wont use condoms for bj’s so everyone will still be at risk, they will stop testing because everyone will be like, we use condoms, we don’t need to test. Porn will go back under ground on the internet and the big companies will go out of buisness, and the valleys’ economy will hit the shitter, and kids will go hungry, happy Shelley, you self righteous cunt.
You’re entitled to your opinion.
Yes, as a matter of fact, I do believe in workplace safety. I believe in industry-appropriate regulations for this, and every, industry. No one is arguing for “no regulation.” The adult business is arguing for “industry-appropriate” regulations.
There are two main components to an examination and evaluation of a regulatory scheme or regime:
1) Are the regulations properly designed and do they constitute the best regulations to do the job within the context of the industry being regulated — in other words, are they effective and “industry-appropriate?”
and,
2) If promulgated and enforced, will they best serve the stated purpose (in this case, public health and workplace safety)? Or would they create other, potentially worse problems.
In the present case, neither the regulations presently enacted, nor the laws and regulations proposed by AIDS Healthcare Foundation (AHF), pass muster.
The regulations, as presently promulgated, were developed for medical clinics in the early 1990s and were arbitrarily imposed upon the adult industry. There’s no handling of blood, syringes, infected bandages, and other hazardous materials on film sets. All film sets can be dangerous work environments, and there are likely more injuries in a week on mainstream Hollywood sets than there are in a year on porn sets — yet mainstream Hollywood’s workplace regulations were developed for film sets, not medical testing labs.
Furthermore, the current regulations were conceived and imposed without any input from the business being regulated! Can you think of another industry where this is he case? No other industry would stand for it. No one invested the time and care to come up with industry-appropriate regulations, and now we have this circus.
Amazingly, Cal/OSHA has taken a zero-risk approach to the adult film community – a standard no other industry is required to meet. That’s not only unfair, once you throw in grant-hungry entities like AHF and UCLA, it smacks of something darker.
Also, AHF, LA County Department of Public Health and Cal/OSHA are taking the approach, based upon a convenient assumption, that any and all incidents of STIs in the adult industry happened at work. The facts do not support that, as I’m sure you will agree.
The argument that other professions are also risky is not a loosing [sic] argument, but, in fact, if you examine the case law, a winning one. You may be entitled to your own opinion, but not to your own version of prevailing law.
I never said that threatening to go underground or leave the state is a winning hand — those are your words — it would, however be a reality if AHF, et al, continue down this road.
Businesses leave areas with restrictive laws and regulations every day. That’s reality. And it’s legal. Get over it. Since these groups applying pressure to the adult industry are aware of that fact, but still persist, what does that tell you about their motives?
I urge you to have a look at “The Adult Film Industry: Time to Regulate?” (2007) co-written by Dr. Peter Kerndt. It’s his manifesto, as it were, explaining why non-condom porn should be censored because it sends the wrong message. Not because of public health concerns — because of the content. First Amendment anyone?
Do you really think that M. Weinstein woke up one day with a hair up his ass about porn stars’ workplace safety issues? That is most certainly NOT what this is about. Mrs. Lubben is just jumping on the bandwagon to grab some of the spotlight. From msnbc, May 2010:
“We believe the beast can be stabbed in seven different places and bleed to death,” [Lubben] said…. Right now, the issue that’s working is workplace safety, and, through it, Lubben has “found a common denominator” with the AIDS Healthcare Foundation.
She got lucky, and AHF tossed her a couple of bones. She was their useful idiot. They’ll cast her aside. Where’s Derrick Burts? Now that his story has been undermined (Rentboy, etc…), you don’t see AHF stepping up to defend him.
Why is an AIDS organization targeting a porn clinic anyway? Shouldn’t they be out helping people with AIDS?
Yes, I’ve read Sharon Mitchell’s comments. She’s made many unwise, and some profoundly stupid remarks during her time at AIM. However, she’s also under a great deal of pressure at the moment. Did you read her recent remark about how AHF and UCLA were aiming for a joint grant to study the porn performer population?
AIM Healthcare, for all its flaws, has saved countless lives by preventing persons already infected from entering the talent pool. How many performers’ lives has Mr. Weinstein saved? He and Lubben are parasites — getting press and trying to make money off of porn while excoriating it.
Shut down AHF Now!
“Non-profit”, my asshole!
They essentially told Pfizer, “Give us millions or else!”
@joe know – And thank you for the props.
I’m doing my best, and I believe in every word I’ve written here, and every view expressed in these videos.
And yes, I also agree that the industry should be doing more. I can only hope that my efforts will resonate enough to inspire ACTION. That is my sincerest hope.
@Ruby There can never be legally mandated resting in California, because under state law it is illegal to discriminate in hiring on the basis of HIV status. That’s why AHF is pushing for condoms.
It doesn’t seem to dawn on anyone that the gay side of the industry uses precisely the system they advocate, yet there is where they (and Derrick Burts) claim Burts got infected.
@jeremysteele11 And Pfizer later gave it to them! It’s a shakedown scheme. Like the allegations against The Rainbow Coalition — that they’d approach corporations and say, “Pay us or we’ll organize a boycott against you.” It’s pure extortion, and it’s an essential part of AHF’s fiscal modus operandi.
Its illegal to discriminate in hiring an HIV+ performer? I don’t believe in the HIV/AIDS dogma, as we all know, but this statement is ridiculous when applying it to the sex industry. Condoms don’t eliminate the risk, therefore discrimination in this regard is necessary, if you believe HIV is infectious. Don’t make me repeat myself on this one!
I agree Michael. But Weinstein would say, “Hey. Its not extortion… ITS JUST BUSINESS!
😛
Does anybody remember the “Three Strikes Law” debate a few years ago in California?
The opponents of Three Strikes kept saying that the criminals will just get more violent, and do anything to avoid getting causght for their third strike, therefore putting the general pulic at greater risk. OF course Three Strikes passed and crime rates went DOWN.
Threats to make things worse do not win political battles, they get dismissed without consideration. IF the industry makes good on this threat, it only shows that the claims of caring for performers is false. Actually, just making this threat pretty much negates any claim of producers caring about their perfomrers. ROCKindustryHARDPLACE
@jeremysteele11 I’m not taking a position on the dogma. I’m simply stating that under present California law, no HIV test (whether you or I consider it valid or not) may be mandated as a condition of employment.
Stool, dont you think the threat to go underground, and work with no tests, and make things more dangerous for perfomrers is a type of EXTORTION on the producers part? OF course it is,, but I would be interested to see how you can spin this.
@Michael,
You are correct about HIV testing being illegal.
SO, how does Dianne Duke expect to have TESTING be considered equal to barrier protection? OSHA does not have the authority to mandate pre employment testing, so they can NEVER accept it as equal to barrier protection. ANd since this is the only thing being offered by the industry, who do they expect to win this battle?
Michael, do you think the industry would support LEGISLATION to make testing mandatory, like in Nevada for sex workers?
@joe know – Diane Duke of FSC is claiming, as I understand it, that the current UNIVERSAL BUT VOLUNTARY testing regime constitutes a barrier. The game that AHF, OSHA & co. are playing is to claim that testing ONLY constitutes SURVEILLANCE, and not substantive protection. They purposely neglect to mention the point I made above — that the testing system PREVENTS infected persons from entering the pool, and also provides a warning system that works.
Also, OSHA is in no position to “accept” or reject anything in this regard. There is a process. FSC is currently working WITH Cal/OSHA on industry-appropriatre regulations. Everyone should let that process play out. AHF doesn’t want to wait, and wants a to guarantee a place at the table for itself.
I have no idea whether the industry (and by that I assume you mean the FSC) would support such a move. I don’t see what difference it would make, since AHF’s goal is mandate condoms, to shut down AIM, and to manage the porn performer database for its own political and financial gain. That said, I sincerely doubt that a move to circumvent the current HIV discrimination in employment laws would get anywhere.
There is no need to make up comments for Mr. Weinstien. He says what he says, and he says it publicly. And when he says stuff, LA County Health jumps, and the LA City Counil jumps, and LA Times jumps, and th AMA jumps. What happens when Dianne Duke and the industry talks and threatens to go underground and make things more dangerous for perfomrers, she gets dismissed without consideration. And this is who the industry is choosing to fight this battle for them. As Stan Marsh would say, “REALLY?” “REALLY?”
That’s why the industry needs to fight. Weinstein can give this industry the one thing it’s never had — unity of purpose; a cause singularly personified in the face of the man that would be king.
AHF manage the perforer database? Are you kidding. Considering they have already filed a civil rights lawsuit based on the illegality of the databse, I doubt it. And considering pre employment testing is illegal I doubt that is what AHF is after. For any TESTING to be mandated will take LEGISLATION…..Period end of conversation.
AHF is not looling to take over the illegal pre employment testing of the adult industry.
Michael, have you actually read the FSC proposal. I HAVE,,,,it contains language that make condom use “optional, at the dicretion of the empolyee” It also contains sections on TESTING, which of course is beyond ridculous. This is what the FSC is proposing, and they know it wont fly. They’re just buying time.
Testing prevents already infected people from joing the industry,,,after that it is simply surveilence. The last case is a PERFECT example. He came in negative, and then IT DOESNT MATTER WHERE HE GOT IT, he bought it with him to the next set he worked on and exposed his fellow employees.
Regading the HIV discrmination laws,,AHF will not and cannot circumvent these laws, and they will never operate a dtatbase like AIM does.
So Michael, what happens after that first test when the performer tests negative and then becomes part of the working group of performers. What type of Barrier Protection does testing then offer? NONE.
Yes there should be testing, and Yes, HIV+ people should be legally banned form working in the industry. BUT THIS WILL REQUIRE LEGISLATION.
And tis Porn perfomrer database is nothing more than a list of people who have tested HIV,gonn/chalm negative in the past. It contains the name, id number, and the results of tests taken in the past, nothing more.
ALL of this is happening becuase there is no specific legislation, like they have in Nevada. OSHA and AHF are doing an end run around the legislature becuase they cant get anyone to sposor a bill, and havent been able to for years now.
Do you think AHF is going to give out passowrd to their database? Do you think PERFORMERS are going to go to AHF to get tested. ONLY LEGISLATION can MANDATE performers to get tested anywhere. The County Health has no authority to mandate testing, let alone, tell people where to get tested.
It does not issue warnings,,,it says LOOK OUT its HERE.
Hey Michael,
How are you?
Interesting debate. Consider this.
The State Athletic Commision legally mandates that any person applying for a boxing, kickboxing, or MMA license in Calfornia to submit a negative HIV test as part of the physical to be granted the license. If they do not provide a test, or if they test positive, they are banned for life from ever competing in a legal match in Califonria. Many other states also have such laws.
I find it interesting that the State of California legally requires fighters to be HIV tested, and HIV negative, but does not require legal sex workers to be tested.It is absolutely possible that these fighters are going to exchange blood, and other possibly infected body fluids. But there is no barrier protection from this obvious exchange of blood, just a negative HIV test. They also require hepatits B&C tests.
There is this legal precedent in California to test people for HIV and ban them from participating in legal employment based on those test results.
There is also this legal precedent to allow the exchange of OPIM(other possibly infectious material)(thats OSHA speak) with only a test, and no barrier protection.
Recently Nina Harley used the term ‘sexual athlete’ to describe porn performers. I think that is a very accurate comparison. What if the industry lobbied the state to creat a commision to license sex workers in California just like they do in Nevada. Of course Nevada also requires condoms, but maybe we could get this commision to declare performers as Independant Contractors just like fighters.
Michael, do you find it as interesting as I do that boxers are required to submit an HIV test, by the state, but sex workers are not? And the test can be from any accredited laboratory, and the fighter signs a waiver to allow the commision to verify the test.
Merry Christmas everybody, I hope you all have a great holiday with your families and friends. Be safe, and get yourself tested, and respect your co-workers. Remember, everything that you do has a direct affect on the other people you do it with.
@joe know – You misstate the nature and purpose of AHF’s legal action regarding the AIM database. AHF has, in any event, lost the high ground on any breach of privacy action due to its own actions — Weinstein believes that it’s perfectly acceptable for the government to covertly funnel extremely private information about the HIV status of patients of public clinics in order to bolster the client-list of AHF. I trust you’re familiar with that widely-reported case.
The voluntary testing system currently in place with the porn business is not illegal. It has never been ruled as such.
You also misstate (or understate) the contents, nature and value of the AIM database.
This end run around the legislature, as you call it, will fail. It doesn’t really matter, because in the end it’s all about publicity.
Yes, I have read the FSC proposal to which you refer. I would also hope you acknowledge that it is not final, and now FSC has a very bright and experienced OSHA attorney working with them.
What are we doing talking about this at this hour — two days before Christmas? I’m going to sign off and take my girl to a nice Mexican dinner.
Good night all, and thank you for the lively discussion and debate
I need to make a small correction.
If a fighter does not submit an HIV test he is simply not granted a license until he does. He is not banned for life at that point. If he tests positive he is banned for life.
Sorry about that.
I like everything you had to say here, Michael. Keep up the good work and the exposes, the adult industry really needs people like you.
Hey Tim, Tommy Morrison was banned from boxing after being told he was HIV+, but was reinstated 10 years later…
From wikipedia: In 1996, Morrison was denied a license and placed on indefinite suspension which was lifted in 2006 , by the Nevada board after allegedly testing HIV positive. In 2006, after years of trying to obtain the results of the tests taken in Nevada – Morrison began to allege that his positive HIV tests had been false positive, and that he had received several negative test results beginning with tests conducted in 2000-2001 during his 14 months in prison on drugs charges. He also began to deride “conventional views on H.I.V. and AIDS”. Doctors hired by various news organizations to review Morrison’s test results expressed skepticism but stated that if Morrison was not currently infected, he never had been…
Also at the bottom of that wikipedia file on Tommy Morrison it reads:
The release of an award winning Documentary with Tommy Morrison… HouseOfNumbers . com was premiered at the Tallgrass Film Festival 2010
Shaking my head at the nonsense. I don’t even know what to say except I will always be honest, more than the porn industry will so let me state unequivocally:
My beliefs on sexual orientation is irrelevant to working with AIDS Healthcare or any other organization including the health department in order to fight to enforce CURRENT health and safety laws within the workplace. The law is the law. What do my Christian beliefs have to do with an industry blatantly breaking laws and damaging and killing human beings? Nothing.
People of different sexual orientation work everyday together to enforce laws.
And, you people can accuse me all day of taking money in my pocket, but when I started this organization I made very sure we did our BEST to keep all monies straight and follow the law. IRS knows it. California knows it. Any judge I stand before will see all of my hard work, integrity and financial statements, including my personal bank account. My honesty will SHATTER the liars in the porn industry.
Here’s a message to the haters who try to stand against me or what God is doing in the porn industry to rescue people:
Better be as honest as I am because if you’re not, you will be exposed.
I care about you all, including Michael the offended lawyer and Ernest Greene, filmmaker of bondage movies that promotes violence against women, but I will stand up to you powerfully and honestly.
Hope you can do the same.
Michael,
In you video you put the label “director/activist” under the image of Ernest Greene. Is there any reason that you dont include “President of the Board of Directors of AIM Healthcare? And do you know why Nina hartley does not identify herself as a memeber of board of direcors of AIM when she makes public apparneces and says tings like,”performers prefer not to use condoms” and “condoms in porn can actaully cause more stds than they prevent?”
What would be the purpose for NOT identfying themselves as board members of AIM Healthcare?
Michael,
You talk about apropriate regulations. Can you give us an example of any regulation that you would consider appropriate? Would you consider making producers pay for tests appropriate?
What about the OSHA regulations that require employers to pay for POST EXPOSURE testing for employees who are exosed on sets?
ANd for the last time IT DOESNT MATTER WHERE SOMEBODY GOT THE DISEASE,,what matters is that after they get infeted they go towork the nest day and the day after that and expose their co workers.
And which do you think is more likely, getting an std while performing unprotected sex on a film set for hours, with the rigoroous sex acts being committed on those sets, or from escort sex(usually with a condom) or at home sex that is in no way as rigorous as the on camera sex?
In my opinion the industry ‘line’ of they caught it off camera is ridiculous. ALL this unprotected sex in the industry, but they all get it off camera,of course they then bring it with them to work but DONT infect anybody in the workplace,,,,a laughable line of reasoning.
Re # 32: Tommy Morrison has never been “cleared” to fight in any juridisction which requires that boxers test HIV negative.
He was cleared to fight in West Virginia in 2006. At the time there was no requirement for boxers to test HIV negative in that state in order to be licensed. Morrison’s management faxed “results” of tests to West Virginia that had been allegedly taken in Arizona.
Morrison’s manager at the time, Randy Lang, later made allegations of “blood tampering and fraud and said the boxer tested positive for HIV as late as January (2007) but still fought a month later in West Virginia.”
http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/news/story?id=2899260
Read into that what you will. But the fact is that Morrison has never been “cleared to fight” by any state athletic authority that requires he test negative for HIV since he was originally diagnosed in 1996. Claims that he now tests HIV negative are extremely unconvincing.
How about answering some of my previous questions, Frank? I thought you were on vacation, but obviously you were laying low. There are plenty of examples of people testing negative after testing postive. In fact, there is no established standard regarding whether someone is HIV+ or not. Fauci admits this, and as the House of Numbers doc shows even two clincians from the same lab have different standards. Some say if you have two proteins you’re postive, some say three. Different labs will say the same test is either positive or negative and if you’re in a “high risk” group, that is homosexual or African, the same test will say you’re positive whereas a white or straight person will be negative. It’s a fuckin’ scamarama, so no wonder you’ve been ignoring my last posts, Frank, he who be not so frank.
WHY DON’T YOU FINALLY ADMIT WHO YOU WORK FOR, FRANK?
I won’t hold my breath, though.
Jeremy Steele says:
‘WHY DON’T YOU FINALLY ADMIT WHO YOU WORK FOR, FRANK?’
Frank works for The Illuminati, the same organization that I, Joe Know, Johnny Depp and the entire science & medicine community work for. Our mission is to fuck with you and make you look like a fool, and we are succeeding.
Long live The Illuminati, keep the checks coming.
P.S: Germy Steal, post a few more comments while I go get some more beer.
Chances are extremely more likely that a person has a false + than a “true” +. This is an established fact that even HIV fundamentalists admit to. Yet Frank has to claim his precious “HIV+” status attributed to Morrison still stands, despite him being declared negative after numerous subsequent tests. Why? Because to admit the tests are bullshit would cause his multi-billion dollar money making empire to crumble.
And Colonel, I never mentioned a Johnny Depp, I mentioned a Johnny Dipp of Butt-Pirates of the Carribean. Enjoy your beer.
Depp, Dipp, Dick, Deck, it’s all part of the grand conspiracy against you, Jeremy. May god help you in your crusade.
Cheers.
Jeremy, it’s simply not possible to answer your garbled word-salad “questions”, because you are not only ignorant but are committed to remaining so.
How is it possible to explain even the basics of diagnostic testing to someone like you who dismisses a relatively simple concept like seroconversion as “fancy sounding, mythological language”? You are far too stupid to educate, and it’d be a waste of time to try.
The best I can do is point out the real facts to counter your most obvious lies, for the unlikely chance there is anyone here still tempted to take your idiocy seriously, and for the entertainment of everyone else.
Your claim that US boxing commissions have accepted that Tommy Morrison is HIV negative is your latest in a whole string of lies. In fact, when Morrison was carded for a fight in Guanajuata, Mexico in 2008, the US Association of Boxing Commissions wrote to the Mexicans recommending he be banned there as well “until and unless he satisfies certain medical testing”.
http://www.saddoboxing.com/6791-tommy-morrison-fight.html
The Guanajuata fight, however, did go ahead. The Mexicans claim they never received the letter from the ABC.
http://www.saddoboxing.com/6809-president-sulaiman-tommy-morrison.html
Morrison has never satisfied the Association of Boxing Commissions that he now tests HIV negative. He remains banned from boxing, and has only had occasional bouts in places outside the ABC’s jurisdiction.
Oh, and not that it’s any of your business, but I work for the Drug Industry Domestic Intelligence Service (DIDIS), Meth-Tranny Subdivision, just like your friend Clark said.
Now take your medication or I will be forced to persecute you some more.
AHF is lying. There has been and there is not an STD, HIV or AIDS “epidemic” in the porn industry. And g/c is mainly due to lots of ATMs and/or ATVs, is curable. So shut the fuck up AHF. We now all know thanks to our interview with Clark that Big Pharm sends you millions and millions. This is who you’re working for, not us.
hasn’t been that is…
And “potentially infectious material” exists all over the human body. Remember the staph infection that was going around years ago? Condoms would’ve been worthless as far as “barrier protection”.
@joe know – I identified Ernest Greeie in that manner for a few reasons — first, in the final version of the complete movie, Julie, who actually knows how to run After Effects, will be doing the final lower-third graphics.
Second, I don’t know that he still is on the Board — I didn’t ask him, but I certainly will when we do the final fact-checking, etc…
Third, the subject of the larger video is Shelley Lubben, not AHF vs. AIM. Shelley’s brief participation in porn pre-dates AIM’s existence.
As for Nina, no I do not know why Nina says or does anything, but I’d be happy to ask her if I get the opportunity.
My personal view on regulations, worker rights, etc… is that, as an essential element to addressing all of these issues — the adult industry needs to forma guild for performers, based on the SAG model. Production companies would need to be signatories to an agreement with that guild, and there would be many, many benefits to performers (potentially, a pension fund, a credit union, etc). The performers’ rates for scenes/shoots would be paid to the guild, which would then pay the talent. Everything would be standardized. And it would drive a stake through he whole “performers are employees” issue.
@slubben – Merry Christmas, Mrs. Lubben. How is it, then, that your tax returns make no accounting for non-cash contributions? And why do they claim that Pink Cross engaged in NO lobbying activities?
In my twenty plus years of clinical laboratory experience I have sold several hundred thousand HIV tests. There has never been one single incident in which a technologist has ever considered race, sexual orientation, or drug additction in their analysis. In fact, not one single time has that information ever been made available to the technologist perfomring the tets.
As far as technologists having different standards, of course they do. You say this as if it were some kind of secret. And there are hundreds of laboratory tests that have different reference ranges depending on which lab is running the tests. Some tests are age and gender specific, HIV tests are not one of them.
Simply put, how does a technologist who has no idea of the sexual orientation, drug additcion, or race of a patient use that in making his determination of a test result? In fact, for the adult industry the only information the lab recieved was a name and an id number,nothing else.
I have worked for Fairmont Labs,Southern California Reference Lab,Pathologist Clinical Lab,Physicians Clinical Lab,Medical Science Institute,Biocypher Lab, Merris Lab,Primex Lab,Healthline Clinical Lab, and Westcliff Labs, and AHF. All of these labs have had affiliations with Quest Diagnostics, Specialty Labs,ARUP,USC Lab,CDC,NIH and many other entities.
Never has a single one of these labs ever even had the information that Mr. Steele claims HIV test results are based on. Another factor to consider: Every single one of the labs I worked for would always send a specimen to antoher laboratory for confirmation, and never have we given that lab any such information about a patient, simply becuase we never had it to give in the first place.
There is nothing ‘B*******’ about the tests that I provided for the ault industry, or any other client for that matter.
To anybody who may read this and be inclined to believe any of it I can only suggest that you seek out more information from credible sources. If you would like Mr. Steele I can arrange for you to spend as much time as you like doing some real research at a real laboratory and witness for yourself how things are done.
I find your accusations of fraud on my part and that of my collegues to be extrememly offensive. I would welcome the opportunity to offer you some real education on the subject, with proffessionals who have dedicated their entire lives educationg themselves on the subject. You can not make sweeping accusations of an entire industry without defaming the individuals who make up that industry. It is obvious that you lack any real knowledge of laboratory procedure.
I will not debate this subject here, but feel free to email me and we can make the arrangements to get you some real education.
AHF is not a lab. I beleive they use Labcorp to run thier tests, but I am not 100% sure of this.
Tritchtm@ca.rr.com
Michael,
Isnt it true that Shelley’s “Short” time in porn is actually about the average amount of time that females are in the industry. According to Sharon Mitchell the average porn girl “carreer” is about five to six months.
Except the highly transient nature of the porn workforce pretty much make a guild or union impossible.
Porn perfomrers are very unlikely to pay dues to belong to a union or guild.
It is the PRODUCERS who need to organize and come up with solutions to THIER problems with OSHA and Helath deparments.
Would your guild or union include residuals for performers,,,we both know that would be ESSENTIAL to any guild or union, and we both know that producers will NEVER go for this,,,,this issue alone makes a porn union nothing more than a fantasy. If producers dont even pay for tests what on earth makes you think they will fund a pension. In theory its agreatidea of course, in reality it will never happen. I prefer to make policy based on reality.
And perfomrers are EMPLOYEEs, that issue has been settled by the courts.(Brooke Ashley) Constantly revisiting this dead issue will get the industry nowhere. Every single time OSHA has cited a company in the past the citations have been upheld. There are certain standards used in determining epmloyee vs. IC. And porn performers fit directly into the emloyee catagory.PERIOD, end of conversation. Just because a porn company pays an indiviual as an IC does not make it so, never has, and never will. I could call my pet hamster an IC, it doesnt make him one.
And the FACT that production companies come and go almost as fast as performers again make the idea of a guild nothing but a dream.
And my other question,
Can you give us one example of any health regulation that you think the industry would find acceptable? And by regulatio, I mean soemthing written ino either OSHA codes or legislation.
@joe know — I have not seen actual statistics on that issue. I can say that we do often hear talk of talent hitting the “two-year wall.”
“Roxy’s” problem was she looked hard and rough, she shot relatively hard scenes (for that era) right from the outset, and she was simply “shot out” (in industry parlance) in a period short time. I think her actual experience was quite typical for similarly-situated women trying to forge a career in porn. There were no better offers on the horizon, and she moved on. Apparently, she has never gotten over the fact that she did not take the porn world by storm.
What cracks me up is how she speaks of the universality of her experiences — all the while offering no corroborating evidence.
@joe know – I’m not an expert in OSHA, or trends in workplace safety regulations.
My guess would be something akin to other film production set regulations, particularly vis-a-vis specialized performers (stuntmen, etc), while still keeping in mind what the end product is and must be — a movie featuring (among other things) consenting adults having sex. There’s fire safety regs, a set medic for first aid, etc.
I’d also suggest talking to the public health, and other workplace safety people in San Francisco — they’re actually interested in helping the adult industry there, not attacking it. It’s the polar opposite of the antagonistic system here in LA.
Michael,
What remedy does the adult industry offer performers who do get ill as a direct result of their employment?
Stuntmen, firement, cops, they all take risks, but they are offered remedies when those risks become reality? And these proffessions all use alot of protevtive equipment yest still get injured. I bet Jerry Stool would suggest that cops dont wear bulet proof bests becuase if they take one to the head it wont help. And a firemans protective gear wont help if the building collapses on top of them.
Name one single thing the porn industry does when these risks become reality for performers. I say the industry does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Can you give me an example of any remedy offered to performers, other than a ride to the hospital and a good-bye, see you later.
And using the term ‘consenting adults’ is very misleading. None of this has anything to do withwhat is done in private lives. Perhaps the term ‘consenting employees’ would be more appropriate, just lie firemen, stuntment and cops are ‘consenting employees.’ Just becuase a fireman willingly runs into burning building doesnt mean that the employer is no longer liable.
Offering no corraborating evidence, kind of like when the porn industy says it is safer to have sex on a porn set than with someone you meet at a bar.
I know you have noticed Michael that AIM will always talk about the ‘number of tests’ they have performed, NEVER the number of PEOPLE they have tested. AIM has reported to County Health over 3000 positive std’s in the last four years. But AIM will NEVER say the number of individuals they have tested in that time.(and that 300o is just gonn/chlam,,no herpes, no hpv,no trichomonis,no PID etc etc.) HMMM, I wonder why? Name me one ofther occupation inLos Angeles that has resulted in3000 cases of illnes directly related to job performance, and directly related to physical contact of employees, that isnt regulated by the state.
@joe know — The workers you mention as examples are employees (not independent contractors), members or unions (or guilds) and often have rights under collective bargaining agreements, or have at least signed terms of employment with clearly articulated terms regarding healthcare, sick leave, pensions, etc…. None of those conditions apply to adult film performers. Any attorney worth his salt can tear apart’s OSHA’s flimsy argument that performers are employees. Even under the abbreviated, distorted version of the test that Cal/OSHA likes to PRETEND is the state of the law, porn producers do not come anywhere NEAR rising to the level of employers within the meaning of applicable law. But, that’s the nature of regulatory agencies — their goal is to regulate. It’s their purpose; it justifies their very existence — and it justifies the paychecks of those who desire to put ever more people within their purview and dominion.
That is not to say that the industry should do nothing, or CONTINUE to do nothing to provide various types of support for the talent. I personally believe that time has come. That is one of the reasons I support an examination of the guild model. At least a referral service for different types of support services should be provided. When performers in need feel their only choice is to go to Aimee Semple Mc– err, I mean Roxy Lubben, something is rotten in Chatsworth.
I will stick with the term “consenting adults,” thank you. Adults — those over the age of majority — have the right to enter contracts, and are considered to have the right and power to self-determination, and free agency. They are free to undertake dangerous jobs. t is their personal, private decision.
No, I do not wonder why AIM has not spoken of the number of people vs. the number of tests. The answer is simple — it takes a great deal of time and resources to accurately deconstruct such a complex database to provide an ACCURATE figure. That is why there exists such a huge disparity between the raw numbers and the “statistics” that LA County likes to tout. It is my understanding, however, that AIM is (or was) a health clinic, not a public health statistic service.
Finally, you cannot possibly be taking the position that EVERY incidence on STIs among adult performers occurred in the workplace?
@Michael,
With all due respect you are simply wrong about porn performers being employees. this issue has been settle by the courts already.
As employees, they are entitlted to all the workplace prtection as any other employee in the state of california. Collective barganing agreements may give some eployees more protections, but the lack of any specific agreements does not remove any protections from porn EMPLOYEES.
Yes adults have the right to enter into contracts LEGAL CONTRACTS that its. Just signing a paper that says youre an IC does not make it so. An illegal contract is unenforceable.
Yes, it is their right to undertake dangerous jobs,,But it is the DUTY of the person OFFERING that dangerous job to be resposible if that danger becomes reality. It all starts with the producer, and it ends with the producer. The PRODUCER makes the CHOICE to offer a dangerous job. The PRODUCER has the duty to take RESPONSIBILITY for the DANGER that HE hires someone to take.
AIMS database is anything but complex. AIM knows how many people they test each month. Again, the database, as it is called, is NOTHING more that the test results of the performers, NOTHING MORE. What is it that you say is so complicated about the database. It shows the performers name, and their test results,,NOTHING MORE!!!
Michael, did you know that the paper that a producer prints off of the AIM “database’ is not actually a copy of their lab result?
And you cant possibly be taking the stance that hundreds of performers are not EXPOSED in the porn workplace every month. And EVERY SINGLE ONE of those who got exposed off set then bring it with them to the set. OSHA’s regulations are about workplace EXPOSURE, and that is what every performer who gets an std OFFSET does,,,exposes his fellow workers. It doesnt matter where you get it, it matters who you EXPOSE AFTERWARDS,,,what about this dont you get.
ANd let me explain why they dont say the number of people tested. Dr. Aranow from AIM, at an OSHA hearing stated that AIM has 5.8% positive gonn/chlam results outof 10,000 tests. That is 580 postives.
580 out of 10,000 doesnt sound that bad. But when you consider that only about 1800 inidviduals took those 10,000 tests the percentage is alot worse.
5% of all tests aint bad,,,,but 27% of all individuals is astronomical,,,DO YOU GET IT NOW!!!!
And there would be a SIMPLE way to know if someone was exposed on any individual set every day. A simple way,,,,can you think of it? (HINT, look at the testing requirements of section 5193 of the OSHA CODE) It can be done EASILY!!!!!
And tell me one thing more that the AIM database has besides names and dates of tests, and resulst of those tests. Just one thing.
!
Employee vs. IC
The person is always considered an employee unless it can be proven that he is an IC.
If the person is told, where to be , when to be there, works directly under the supervision of someone else, does not provide the workplace, does not provide the tools to do the job, and is an ESSENTIAL person necessary to complete the job, he is an employee. DURATION of employment is not a factor.
A porn performer is told when to be there (call Time)
a porn perfomrer is to where to go (location or set)
a porn performer does not provide the workplace(the producers pays for the location)
a porn perfomrer does not provide the camers, lights, sound equipment or other essential tools
a pornperformer works directly under the supervision of the DIRECTOR
a porn perfromer is the MOST ESSENTIAL person to complete the PRODUCERS project.
EVERYTHING points to perfomrers being employees, and like I have said, this is a dead issue.
And again, what is so complicated about the AIM ‘database?”
@joe know – You are quite simply incorrect in your analysis. The issue is not settled, nor is it as simple as you make out. However, the guild model would also help serve to put the issue to rest.
In any event, an independent contractor agreement, even if voided in favor of a finding of an employer-employee relationship, is not an example of “an illegal contract.” An illegal contract is an agreement for an illegal purpose or regarding an illegal good or service — that is the reason it’s unenforceable as a matter of public policy. The term “illegal contract” has NO applicability here. It’s apples and oranges.
Your statement that “it is the DUTY of the person OFFERING that dangerous job to be responsible if that danger becomes reality” is just wrong (or, put more diplomatically, “overly broad”) UNLESS there’s a specific public policy reason to require that duty. Absent that, the person offering a job is the master of his offer. One can take it or leave it (again, subject to some limitations — for example, there are some inherent, implied rights and responsibilities that cannot be waived, but not that many, and always for public policy reasons/unconscionability, etc…) It’s similar with other types of contracts — such as contracts for sale of goods and services. Cigarettes are harmful to the health of the public, but you can’t sue your 7-11 store owner because he sold them to you. Many risks, and many causes of action, can be disclaimed away. If you are a competent adult, there are certain basic risks you are imputed to have knowledge of, and you CAN give informed consent. How well-informed the person might have been in any given case is a matter for a court of competent jurisdiction to decide. You can bet Evel Kneivel had to get permits to do his big stunts — but there’s no compelling public policy basis for denying a daredevil (even a foolish one) from risking his life for profit. He was granted permits by governmental authorities. This is a question of liberty, personal responsibility and free thought/expression. I’d say there’s a pretty compelling reason to preserve those ideals, even in the face of government agencies’ thirst for more and more control –err, I mean “broader jurisdiction”. Just because one person is paying another, that doesn’t mean these rights are any less valuable. The world cannot and should not be turned unto a child-safe day nursery. This forum is not the place to teach a course in jurisprudence dating back to English common law. You make some valid arguments, but they’re just arguments, and the law is complex.
Yes, all workers, employees and independent contractors alike, are entitled to safe workplaces, but the point you were making was regarding other duties, services, benefits and remedies. In California, for example, porn performers have the right to lodge complaints — anonymously to boot. So much for the claim that they fear being blacklisted!
As for the AIM database, I don’t think either of us is qualified to discuss in any greater detail a database which we have neither managed nor even seen. If it were all that simple and clear-cut, the real meaning of the data wouldn’t be in such dispute. Data is subject to interpretation. The database is raw, pure data. To quote a line from one of director Roy Karch’s favorite movies, “Nothing pure, old sport, is ever simple.”
http://www.legalzoom.com/everyday-law/workplace/employee-vs-independent-contractor-differences
When the hiring part y controls the way work is carrie dout and a product delivered, the relationship between the parties is employer/employee.
Tis is one more reason for the employee relationship. the performer has no say in how the product is delivered. Even if a person fits under some of the IC requirements, the Employee requirements will take precedent. It is not easy to be labeled an IC, and that is for the protection of workers rights. Too many businesses try to classivy people as IC’s in order to exploit them, eactly like the porn industry does. Tell an 18 year old girls that she’s an IC and she doesnt know the difference.That is why these laws are there, to protect workers from exploitive eomployers.
Youre doing more than most Michael, but you need to give this up. If youre making your stand on calling performers IC’s youre going to lose.
And again, can you tell us one thing that producers do regarding health and safety for their performers(employees), and I dont mean having the performers pay for their own tests.Producers do not supply the tests I cant think of one single thing. Performers also are told to bring their own sanitary products, soap, towels, etc,,,is there ANYTHING that producers do?
ANd you mentioned the ‘two year wall.’ I have heard this term too. It refers to a performer, usually female, who has made it THAT LONG in the industry who either is completely “shot out” OR has made a MARKETABLE name for herself and has the ability to keep working.(Jenna Haze,belladonna have gotten over the two year wall successfully, as have others, but they are a minority when you look at how many NEVER even make it to ‘the wall.’
It would be interesting to see AIM tell us how many people have more that 24 monthly tests(two years) versus how many have fewer than 24 tests. It could be simply done, but will never happen.
The truth is the last thing the industry wants anybody to know. thats why they dont do any comprehensive testing for HPVm herpes, tricomonis PID, etc. The truth would be too damming. The same reason the Gay industry doesnt test for HIV, the truth would be too damming.
The porn industry motto…..NO TESTS=NO STATS=NO TRUTH=jUST THE WAY THE INDUSTRY WANTS IT.
Michael, imagine if they tested for herpes and hpv and tricomonis and hepatitis,,,,that sure would add a huge number to that 3000 performers with just gonnoreah and chlamydia wouldnt it,,,WOUDLNT IT?,,now be honest here!!!!(this of course will be ignored)
Micael, none of the examples you give concerning inherent risks, like selling cigarettes, have anything to do with eemployers, and employees.
What people do in private is one thing, what people do as EMPLOYEEES is different.
The Database has nothing more than the test results of the performers,,NOTHING ELSE. Thisis a fact. There is NO OTHER information inwhat is called the ‘database’
@joe know – You are missing my point. Yes it’s different, but absent a public policy rationale, persons are allowed to accept risky work, and bear some or all of the risk. The overriding issue is freedom. Pornography is a legal business, just like selling tobacco, or booze. My philosophy — vis a vis government action on porn, liquor, or cigarettes, or what have you — is either make it illegal or keep your fucking hands off of it.
Now, that does not ever justify mistreatment or abuse of anyone. But you cannot say that a mutually agreed-upon action, entered into with informed consent, can rise to that level if the terms of that agreement have been fulfilled — again, absent a compelling public policy rationale. I don’t know where you get, or how you can support, the idea that persons over the age of majority should not be allowed to independently contract to engage in this behavior. On what basis?
@joe know – It is my belief that yes, there would be cases of the STDs you mention if there universal testing were done for them. But performers can ask for such tests independently. AIM will –and does (or did) perform those tests upon request. But I refuse to ascribe any motivation or intent to the fact that these tests re not done universally.
@joe know — One other thing: While I truly do appreciate you endeavoring to back up your claims and arguments with ACTUAL SUBSTANCE (a rarity, on-line or anywhere for that matter), I am a graduate of a fine law school (I do not practice; I’m what’s known as a “recovering lawyer”), and I really don’t need a link to legalzoom.com to grasp the subtleties of employment law.
ABSOLUTELY 100% CORRECT MICHAEL.
I love it when I hear people say, Why doesnt AIM test for herpes, or anything else.
AIM can and will do those tests if the person asks for them.
But Michael, you have no problem ascribing numerous motives to alot of people in this battle, and I think that keeping the true picture of the std situation would certainly be a vialbe motive for not universally testing for these illnesses.
Yes there are other occupations where there is risk but again, those industry’s offer remedies. WHAT REMEDIES DOES THE PORN PRODUCER OFFER?
And I have never said that adults should not be allowed to work in any chosen profession. What I do question is the liability of someon who HIRES an employee to take risks that the employer openly recognizes.
I want to open a coal mine and hire people to work the mines. Its dangerous. But if theres an accident I’m not going to do anything becuase you took the job knowing the risks. Too bad, good bye. You know that aint ging to fly.
I want to amke a porn film. I hire people to do the job, but if you get sick as a direct result of this toobad, goodbye. The fact that I hired somebody with a disease to work with you isnt my problem, its your problem Good bye. I dont have workers comp inusrance either.
Can you tell me any risky occupation where the employee accepts ALL the risk, and has NO REMEDY for that risk?
WHAT IS THE REMEDY THE PORN IDUSTRY OFFERS?
Is it too difficult for you to just say it,,,they offer no remedy. Lets be HONEST here, why cant you just admit this?
Do you honestly beleive that producers have NO RESPOSIBILTY for the jobs that htey CHOOSE to hire peole for. Performers are not the only ones making choices here. The PRODUCER CHOSSES to be in this industry too. HE CHOOSES to hire people for risky jobs. Is there no responsibilities for his CHOICES?
@Michael
Regarding MOTIVES, which again, you have no problem ascribing to others, as you do it constantly, what do you think might be the reason that the gay industry doesnt test for anything?
Could it be NO TESTS=NO STAT=NO TRUTH?
You certainly have ascribed underhanded motives to virtually everyone of the other side of the battle, but you wont even consider any motives of the adult industry now will you?
As a lawyer, wouldnt you look for the motives on every side of an issue, just to be fair and accurate.
I think the motive to NOT HAVE THESE STATS available is a very REAL MOVITVE for the adult industry. Of course AIM offers all of these tests, but they are not covered by the waiver, only HIV gonn/chlam are covered by the waiver.
Or do you contend that there is only evil motives on the other side, and the motives an intentions of the adult industry are as pure as the driven snow?
@joe know — Performers have numerous legal remedies, just not for foreseeable risks.
Producers have duties, but not as broad as the ones you seem to be imputing to them
@joe know — Regarding the gay industry, there exists a prevalent view, based in reality (in my opinion) that since a portion of society still considers HIV/AIDS a gay problem, less fuel should be added to that fire.
But moreover, gay performers (“models,” in gay porn parlance) are quite sensitive (and, I’d say, justifiably so) about the idea of their HIV STATUS being disclosed because the whole model is different. The culture is different.
Many gay men get into porn for a while to boost their status in the club scene, or what have you (that’s just an example, not meant to be the primary rationale — but it will do for the sake of this point). If they decide to go out into the “mainstream” world, suddenly things have changed.
While it’s illegal to discriminate in employment on the basis of one’s HIV status, once that status has been made public, who knows if that’s the reason you didn’t get that job? How can you prove it after the fact? It’s better for all concerned to keep it private. From what I know of the culture of gay porn models, that is a real fear, and the issue of personal choice in disclosing or not disclosing one’s status is primary.
it is for that reason that so many gay men (in and out of the porn biz) are furious with AHF’s illegal receipt of the HIV status of thousands of patients of public clinics in order to bolster the client roster of AHF. As one well-known gay porn producer puts it, (re: Mr. Weinstein) “Control trumps privacy for ‘the good gay.'”
I agree itis illegal to require an IV test for employment.
this being true, and we both agree on this, then wouldnt you think there is a little somthing shady about producers having acess go thoushands of HIV test results which they use in determining who to hire. And wouldnt you think that some type of usiness relationship could be construed between AIM and the producers, since AIM provides these results, and some produces openly state they they only accept AIM tests.
ANd you say performers do have legal remedies, can you give me an example of one of those remedies?
And you said, producers have duties, can you give me an example of one of those duties? Or are these just statement witout corroborating evidence?
And I will ask again, can you give ONE example of what producers do regarding health and safety of performers, just one example?
And wat about gay industry companies that knowingly hire HIV positive perfromers? Didnt Treasure Media put out a press release about signing to an exclusive perfoming contract an HIV positive guy? What resposibility does a company like this have for the performers that are hired to work with the known HIV positive performer?
And exactly howis it ‘better for all concerned to keep it private(HIV status)”
Isnt the entire AIM system about being open and honest about your HIV status with the person youre about tohave unprotected sex with.
It may be better for producers, who can claim ignorance, but how is it better for performers to ‘keep it private? That just simply makes no sense what so ever.
I have seen that youre working with Julie Meadows on this project. I would like to ask her as a female performer, does she think it would be better for male performers to keep their hiv status private?
Another funny thing about the AIM database, they put all those results out there for producers to see, but if someone tests positive they remove that name from the database. And they remove the names of anyone on the quarantine list. I guess AIM isnt really that confident in the legality of that waiver they have folks sign.
Michael, do you think the new privatitized AIM will give passwords to producers?
@joe know – How do we define “a business relationship?” That’s extremely broad. If I donate to the AMA and they send me some of those address labels — which I use, and no longer have to pay someone to write or stamp my return address on envelopes — do we have a business relationship? Is the fact that I have benefitted in some –any — way conclusively demonstrate a “business relationship?”
Performers’ legal remedies? — if a producer commits a tort against them, they can sue. This can be a physical act, or a violation of the terms of their contract. Persons enter into contracts, and, if the terms are not met by all persons signatory to it, courts provide remedies (not necessarily enforcement, but a remedy). Furthermore, any porn performer can file an anonymous complaint against someone they have worked for, and those complaints are investigated (if considered not to be BS).
Corroborating evidence of Producers’ duties? — I think you mean evidence in support of my position. Aside from the minimum basic requirements for safe workplaces under state law (which you can look up), here’s one: producers have a duty to uphold their end of the contract.
Can I give one example of what producers do regarding health and safety of performers? Yes, they support AIM and voluntarily participate in, and adhere to the parameters of, one of the most effective community-based HIV mitigation programs in the world, one which has been regarded by the UN’s World Health Organization as among the best community-supported HIV / STD prevention and mitigation organizations anywhere.
As for Treasure Island Media, again, whether we agree with their judgment or not, HIV+ and HIV- cannot be forced to not have sex with each other. They also cannot be forced not to AGREE to have sex with each other. One may consider it bad taste to make a movie of a certain kind, but we have the First Amendment to protect unpopular speech.
@joe know — With your comment on the “private” status of HIV test results, you are shamelessly twisting my words.
First, my statements about “private” HIV status were VERY CLEARLY made strictly within the specific context of the gay side of the industry, which does not use the AIM system (although some individual gay performers certainly do test there of their own volition).
Second, my statements about gays and “private” HIV status have to do largely with the gay cultural context, and fears of discrimination.
They have absolutely no bearing o the AIM model. The gay porn paradigm stands apart from the AM model.
@joe know – You ask “do you think the new privatitized AIM will give passwords to producers?”
I have absolutely no idea. It is my belief that the restructured AIM will abide with all applicable law, and will continue to strive to keep performers safe. But I have no inside information of any kind about AIM. My guess is you’ll hear about it the same time I do.
Thats where your ewrong again Michael. Producers support of AIM is in words only. It is performers who pay all the costs and keep AIM running. Producers donate VERY VERY VERY little to AIM in the form of money. AIMs publicly abailable record establishthis as fact. These are the same records that Pink Cross has to make public, maybe you should look them up.
AIM is funded by the performers, but somehow the producers take credit for ‘requiring’ AIM tests.
IT is the PERFORMERS who abide by the AIM protocols. The entire AIM system was set up for PERFORMERS, but somehow the producers began to take credit for ‘requiring’ tests, which they dont, and often flat out refuse to pay for. The tests are taken BEFORE any producer hires a performer. How do you give producers credit for this?
AS a lawyer might say, let me rephrase that question. On set, once the cameras start rolling and after they are done rolling, what do producers do for anyone who bets ill as a result of their employmnet? Lets use Lara roxx, and Jessica Dee as examples. What was done for them?
And would you like to know how it can be estabished if someone on a set was EXPOSED to gonn/or chalmydia on that particular set on that particular day, there fore removing the industry line of ‘how do you know the person was expolsed on my set? And this would be OSHA compliant too. Are you interested?
If i provide HIV results to an entity that is using them to make decisions on who to hire and hwo not to hire, and those companies only accept test result form my clinic, I would say theire is some type of direct relationship there. And if I PAY for access to those results that are illegal to require, but I publicly state that I do require them, then some type of relationship definately exists. And if I have my patients sign a waiver to give those results directly to a thrd party to make their decision to hire that individual, then some type of relationship exists.
Prodcuers reqire tests for one thing and one thing only, to determine if they are going to hire that individual. If I pay somone to have access to that information that I require for employment, there exists a relationship.
@joe know — You are entitled to your opinion, sir. Until and unless any of the things you mention are tested in court (including the EDD citations against porn producers), you’re doing nothing more than whistling in the breeze.
Since your Lara Roxx / Jessica Dee question is clearly rhetorical, why don’t you just go ahead and answer it for us anyway.
There’s a song about criticism. It goes, in part:
You know the measuring pole,
The merry boots of clay.
I’ve heard it all before,
You’ll say it anyway
I just read Tim’s email for the first time now, lost behind all the others behind Joe and Michael Whiteacre. Quick question Tim. What is the name of the test that you call a “confirmatory” test.
Interestingly, in the US, ELISA is considered to be very inaccurate, and no diagnosis of HIV infection is made without a Western Blot (considered to be more accurate) as confirmation. In the UK, however, just the opposite is true and Western Blots (which are much more expensive) are considered to be inaccurate!
http://aras.ab.ca/articles/popular/200708-InventingReview.html
Homely means “ugly” in the US, but “pleasant” in the UK.
The verb, to “table,” means “propose” in the UK, but “set aside” in the US.
Ok michael I will answer the question that you wont. The industry did NOTHING for them. You know that as well as I, you just wont admit it. I will concede point to you, as I have in the past. Funny how you just want to give your dodging response when you know the answer does not fit your ‘motives.’
you have no porblem ascribing motives to others, but you refuse to ascribe any motoves to anyone on the other side of the debate. Very intersting indeed. How is it that you know the motives of everyone on the other side, but dont know, or refuse to state the motives of people on your side of the debate. Very interesting indeed. Your silence on the motives of your side speak volumes by itse
“HIV tests are meaningless. A person can react positive even though he or she is not infected with HIV. The tests are interpreted differently in different countries, which means that a person who is positive in Africa [or Thailand] can be negative when tested in Australia. There is no justification for the fact that most people have not been informed about the serious inaccuracy of the tests. The error has catastrophic repercussions on thousands of people. Since people are reacting positive on tests that are not specific for HIV, let’s please stop labeling them as ‘HIV positive.’” -Dr. Roberto Giraldo, MD, specialist in internal medicine, infectious and tropical diseases, New York. Former Chairman of the Department of Microbiology and Parasitology, University of Antioquia, Medellin, Colombia.
“None of these investigators isolate actual viruses or viral genomes; all they do is add some primers to a PCR mixture and pretend that the printout represents HIV genomes. None of this has been proven, and furthermore the PCR technique was never conceived as a quantitative measure of anything. In view of this we should always qualify our usage of the term ‘viral load,’ otherwise we fall into the trap of subscribing to their hypothetical nonsense.”
-Biochem Prof. Jim Hudson
“No particle of HIV has ever been obtained pure, free of contaminants; nor has a complete piece of HIV RNA (or the transcribed DNA) ever been proved to exist.” -Dr. Stefan Lanka: Virologist, Germany.
“There are too many shortcomings in the theory that HIV causes all signs of AIDS. We are seeing people HIV-infected for 9, 10, 12 years or more, and they are still in good shape, their immune system is still good. It is unlikely that these people will come down with AIDS later.” (Miami Herald 23 Dec. 1990). -Dr. Luc Montagnier, Virologist, discoverer of HIV, Institute Pasteur Paris.
“Every mathematician knows that by changing the definition of something, you can change the entire truth about that thing. Rebecca Culshaw describes how the HIV = AIDS ‘orthodoxists’ have abused this idea. As in a shell game, they keep moving the definitions around, so that anything can be true and everyone will be confused. The abuse of science that has been documented here is itself very frightening. But when we learn that the standard treatment for HIV-positives – antiviral therapy – will substantially increase their risk of dying, it’s even scarier.” – Dan Fendel, B.A. (summa cum laude) Harvard University, PhD, Yale; Professor of Mathematics, San Francisco State University; Primary author, Foundations of Higher Mathematics: Exploration and Proof.
“People with AIDS must learn that much of what they are told about AIDS is mere speculation, i.e. theories. The idea that the virus invades white blood cells, called T4 helper cells, and destroys them is one such theory. This theory and myth has been presented to the public as fact. The idea that a diminished number of T4 cells is the critical factor in the development of AIDS is another such theory. The idea that a number of T4 cells below 200 is the magic measure of whether a person should start taking AZT is a pig-in-the-poke choice of numbers.”
“In my own medical practice I have a few patients who have had less than 50 T4 helper cells for months and years and they haven’t become weakened or ill with serious infections. On the other hand, one patient who followed a natural therapy had a T4 increase from less than 100, to over 600, at which time he developed pneumocystis carinii pneumonia.”
“T4 white blood cell counts are intimately related to mental focus. One of my patients was without symptoms and went to another doctor for an ‘AIDS test.’ The doctor did the test, which was positive, as well as the T4 helper cell count, which was 494 and normal. Upon learning that his antibody test was positive, the patient went into a tailspin of depression and fear. One week later he returned to the doctor because of his anxiety, and his T4 helper cell count was taken again. After one week of depression and no other symptoms, his T4 cells count fell over 50% to 234.”
“This intimate relationship of the mind and body raises a question about the true nature of the AIDS epidemic. It is not far-fetched to postulate that much of the immune system depression among AIDS-test-positive patients might be the result of doctors telling them that it is likely they will get AIDS and die. The brain is a giant immune system gland that operates on hope, joy, and optimism. The gland turns off in response to mental attitudes of fear and depression.
“The question is raised as to how many people are dying because they have been programmed to die. The observation is made that doctors who tell their patients they have a terminal disease are programming their patients to die. The charge is made that these doctors are performing malpractice.”
– Dr. Lawrence Badgley, MD, San Francisco. Author, Healing Aids Naturally
@joe know — With respect, your evaluation of what I choose to say and what I refuse to concede is worthless — to me or anyone else. Furthermore, I have no duty to answer any question put to me — if I elect to do so, sir, it is out of courtesy, or because I feel it will advance the discussion. I certainly don’t demand answers of you.
Refusing to answer a rhetorical question is not dodging a question, it’s dodging a manipulation — and a clumsy one at that.
I only ascribe motives to individuals (personally, or as policy makers of organizations), based upon their explicit statements and their actions (and, unlike you, not by what they don’t say). Some motives are clear enough; you don’t need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.
However, the industry at large is not an individual. There is no consensus view in porn — good luck trying to find one. I refuse to paint the entire adult production industry with the broad brush of your choosing, sir.
I will gladly concede this, however: people, and businesses, act in their own best interests. Full stop.
Producers bargain for and receive, in exchange for good and valuable consideration, waivers of liability with every contract/model release. We are talking about adults here. Adults can and do give consent — even to things that you do not like. And they waive or agree to restrictions upon their rights. We do it every day. Park your car in parking structures much? Ever read the back of the ticket — “this is not a bailment.” It’s a tough world. Some fall, some fight and some just carry on.
Sorry to butt into your informed and substantive discussion, Michael and Joe, but Jeremy just smeared yet more denialist crap on the thread (#77):
“Interestingly, in the US, ELISA is considered to be very inaccurate, and no diagnosis of HIV infection is made without a Western Blot (considered to be more accurate) as confirmation. In the UK, however, just the opposite is true and Western Blots (which are much more expensive) are considered to be inaccurate!” he says, parroting something he read on an AIDS denialist website somewhere.
Diagnostic testing standards in the US and in Europe (including the UK) are broadly similar. In both regions, fourth generation EIAs (ELISAs) are the preferred initial screening tests, although rapid/point of care tests are also used, depending on the situation. An initially reactive screening test is repeated with a second test, often a different kind of EIA.
If this second test is reactive then a “confirmatory” or more correctly a “supplemental” test is performed. In the US this is usually a Western Blot, although an immunofluorescence test such as the Fluorognost HIV-1 IFA is used in some situations, such as with the Home Access system.
In the UK and elsewhere in Europe the supplemental (third) test can be a Western Blot, or an immunofluorescence test (IFA) or a line immunoassay (LIA).
A positive result from such a completed testing algorithm should then be repeated with a new sample, to exclude handling or labeling errors.
It is rubbish to say that WB is considered “inaccurate” in the UK, while EIA is considered “inaccurate” in the US. EIA is the preferred initial screening test for most situations in both places, and WB is the usual supplemental test in the US and many other countries, and is often used in Europe including in the UK.
AIM, I gather, uses a qualitative PCR test for initial screening. The reason for this is that these can detect very early infection, before fourth generation EIAs can. Blood banks throughout the western world also use similar tests as part of their donor screening algorithms, to pick up donors in the earliest stages of infection.
There are fourteen different HIV diagnostic and diagnostic supplemental kits currently approved by the FDA in the US, and I imagine probably a similar number marked by Conformité Européenne for use in Europe (including the UK).
HIV diagnostic testing is a little bit more complicated than what I’ve outlined above, and the precise combination of kits used for diagnostic algorithms will vary from country to country and within countries according to the clinical setting. But approved testing algorithms all follow broadly similar principles, and provide similarly highly accurate results when performed correctly.
FDA-approved HIV diagnostic and diagnostic supplemental tests are listed here:
http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/BloodBloodProducts/ApprovedProducts/LicensedProductsBLAs/BloodDonorScreening/InfectiousDisease/UCM080466
UK national screening and testing guidelines can be found here:
http://www.guidelines.gov/content.aspx?id=12376
This brings me back to the question I’ve asked you, Frank, which you’ve repeatedly ignored. Since Elisas are antibody tests, how are antibodies indicative of any specific disease, in the absence of any symptoms of a disease itself? Is it “crazy” or “denialist” to be asking you this simple question? Let’s remember the foundations of this HIV/AIDS legacy. The test Gallo invented after he said HIV causes AIDS was an antibody test.
You also never answered how the “foremost authority on retrovirology” according to Robert Gallo, that being Peter Duesberg, goes from the foremost authority to “wing nut” because he wouldn’t go along with the medical establishment which dishes out grants. These epithets of yours Frank are just a punkish attempt at ignoring the points, themselves.
Btw, thanks for at least admitting that the “confirmatory” tests are but supplemental. You’ve gained some respect from me for admitting that. You’ve just admitted there is no confirmatory HIV test in existence. This to me, should cause the raising of an eye brow, at least, if you’re not comatoast from the neck-up.
Antibodies for an infectious agent are indicative of that infectious agent, Jeremy, whether symptoms of the disease caused by that infectious agent are present or not. Depending on the type of antibodies and the agent in question, the presence of antibodies may indicate resolved infection or present infection by that agent.
In the case of HIV, the presence of HIV antibodies as indicated by completed diagnostic HIV antibody test algorithms means that there is present HIV infection. This has been confirmed by multiple studies, going back as far as the late 1980s.
I’m not all that interested in teaching you semiotics 101, or getting involved in silly hair-splitting semantic games about the meaning of “indicate”, or “confirm” or “prove” or “provide definitive evidence of” or “presume”. I wouldn’t have thought that even a third rate college debating major would be interested in that kind of pointless sophistry. I doubt you’ll find any takers here.
If you want to try to understand how Duesberg became a wingnut, there are several insightful articles on the web about it which I’ll link below to avoid the spam trap. But the short answer is that he held on to an overvalued idea long after accumulated evidence had completely invalidated it. This is actually a pretty common foible of human nature, and scientists are not immune to hanging on to pet hypotheses long after they have been discredited.
The main difference with Duesberg, however, is that he and his close supporters have constructed a cult around him. This has been enormously destructive to people with HIV who have been sucked into the cult (and your friend Christine Maggiore and her baby are prominent examples).
How do scientists become cranks and doctors quacks?
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=527
When Good Scientists Go Bad: How Kooks are Made:
http://scienceblogs.com/erv/2008/05/when_good_scientists_go_bad_ho.php
Is HIV infection present in all seropositive people, whether they have symptoms or not?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC269529/pdf/jcm00049-0036.pdf
And Tim, here is some “wing nut” thing I got off the internet, which says the World Health Organization instructs the interpretion of test results based on their “riskiness”:
Both officially and unofficially, the tests are interpreted in many places according to their expectations as to what the results will be.
As ‘risk factors’ are sent along with the tests, the lab can decide whether or not to interpret a reading as ‘indeterminate’ or ‘negative’ or ‘positive’. The WHO actually put instructions to interpret test results in some conditions according to known risk factors (thereby creating a self-fulfilling prophesy), and the Australian Western Blot guidelines do the same.
That’s denialist, wingnut idiocy, Frank. Antibodies are not indicative of any disease. Antibodies are non-specific to a particular bug by their very nature – they will latch on to anything that is recognized as a foreign antigen. And the concept of antibodies prior to Gallo always was indicative of immune response, where they are now considered indicative of immune deficiency. That was the point of vaccination. The very word vaccinate is based on the fact that antibodies to one bug can protect someone against another. Smallpox was wiped out on the basis that antibodies to cowpox also attack smallpox.
Every human body has HIV antibodies according to the tests themselves. It’s just whether or not you have enough to reach their arbitrary threshold that determines whether the test is classed as positive or not. If everybody has them, either everyone has been exposed to HIV, or else they are not unique to HIV, and possibly just some by-product of processes within the body.
Women, especially porn star, gays and blacks should be skeptical of antibody tests: Semen in the blood can directly make HIV tests positive, as can antibodies to it. Semen is also immunosuppressive to a degree. Very large quantities from lots of different guys over a long period of time, possibly noticeably so.
Black people are also more likely to show up positive because of naturally occurring higher Immuno-gamma-globulin levels.
Also, one of 70 or so known causes of a false-positive test is based on receptive anal sex, popular with gay bottoms, of course. Lots of anal sex causes an antibody response.
Western Blot test which is supposedly more specific used in America has effectively been banned by the Public Health Laboratory in the UK for years because it is “Non-specific, irreproducible, and difficult to interpret, and should never have been let out of the lab”.
Analysis of the protein bands in Western Blot tests shows that all the bands can be produced by proteins from places other than HIV. So none of the bands that are allegedly specific to HIV are in actual fact specific to it at all.
Again, this is why all test manufacturers protect themselves from liability when they admit all their tests are “presumptive”.
Sorry to burst some peoples’ billion-dollar bubble.
More rubbish from Jeremy:
As ‘risk factors’ are sent along with the tests, the lab can decide whether or not to interpret a reading as ‘indeterminate’ or ‘negative’ or ‘positive’. The WHO actually put instructions to interpret test results in some conditions according to known risk factors (thereby creating a self-fulfilling prophesy), and the Australian Western Blot guidelines do the same.
A positive, negative or indeterminate WB is just that – a positive, negative or indeterminate test result, irrespective of the clinical status of the testee. If you are a Dominican nun with a positive diagnostic algorithm (eg repeatedly positive on EIA and positive WB) then the result is positive, no matter how unexpected it might be. If you are a gay needle sharing sex addict and your WB is negative, then the result is negative.
Where clinical status is useful is in interpreting whether and which further testing should be recommended in the case of persistently indeterminate results. “Indeterminate” means that no clear result can be derived from that test, not “we’ll call it positive if he’s high risk” as denialists repeatedly claim.
And since you love to bring up Christine Maggiore and Eliza Jane over and over:
There are plenty of reasons why people can have a cough and lose weight, and then, be diagnosed with pneumonia or tuberculosis. Do you claim that TB and pneumnia never existed before HIV and AIDS and that the only cause of pneumonia these days can be HIV?
Here’s a couple of comments:
Comments
Name: Vince – Date posted: 2008-12-30 10:26 AM Hometown: New Orleans
Comment:
We lived up the street from her in Van Nuys and loved her and her family. While she was a lightning rod for controversy, there was no kinder
neighbor or sweeter family. My prayers go out to Robin and his son.
Name: Carl – Date posted: 2008-12-30 10:24 AM Hometown: Chicago
I’m not seeing any evidence in this LA Times article that Christine actually died of AIDS and not something else. Also, the presumption that her daughter died of AIDS is false. Other doctors have looked at the pathology reports and drawn a different conclusion–that she died of an allergic reaction to an antiobiotic.
In fact, despite Christine’s repeated requests, no tests results were ever released showing that her daughter was HIV positive. Probably this, more
than anything, was the reason child endangerment charges were dropped against Christine. Let’s see the evidence that Christine actually died of
AIDS before we pronounce judgment against her.
Here’s a letter about Christine and Eliza from
Peter Staley, Founder & Advisory Editor of
AIDSmeds . com
What should we call it? A suicide?
What should we call it when a woman dies because she refuses to believe she has a treatable illness?
And what should we call it when a woman lets her baby daughter die because she refuses to believe the baby has a treatable illness?
A murder?….
Someone’s reply to him was:
Quote:
What should we call it??
What should we call it when zealots leap to conclusions while the full circumstances of Christine’s death are still unknown?
Blind bigotry, that’s what.
And what should we call it when a zealot such as Peter Staley accuses a dead woman of murdering her daughter, even though the L.A. police
declined to support such a charge against Christine after a full investigation?
I call it dancing on the grave of the deceased.
Christine Maggiore was always measured in her statements on HIV/AIDS. That was the hallmark of her activism. It was a mature and responsible
approach.
Perhaps you could learn that from her in her death.
It’s hard to remain measured on such an emotionally charged issue as AIDS, but Christine had to balls to play it right.
More balls than you, Stanley.
By the way, the LA Times reported the coroner’s coments like this:
According to officials at the Los Angeles County coroner’s office, she had been treated for pneumonia in the last six months.
But to give them credit, the San Francisco Chronicle added:
“She had been treated for pneumonia in the past six months, but the official cause of her death was pending”, county coroner Assistant Chief Ed Winter said Tuesday.
He said it was unclear if her death was AIDS-related.
Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:15 pm Post subject:
——————————————————————————–
Here’s fuller details on Christine’s illness.
It is clear that the pneumonia which afflicted her in her final days
was not so-called “AIDS-related PCP Pneumonia,” which is a fungal
infection of the lungs over a protracted period.
It was instead a standard bacterial pneumonia of both lungs.
There were other factors, which Celia Farber
and Christine’s husband Robin detail below:
Quote:
What Killed Christine Maggiore?
by Celia Farber, 2008/12/30
I got the devastating news yesterday that my very good friend Christine Maggiore died at home on December 27th, from a bout of bilateral
bronchial pneumonia, that afflicted her in recent weeks, and which she was unable to overcome.
The news has been shattering to all who loved her around the world.
Speaking for myself, I can say that Christine Maggiore was one of the strongest, most ethical, compassionate, intelligent, brave, funny, and
decent human beings I have ever had the honor to know. I spoke to her in great depth about all aspects of life, death, love, and this battle we both found ourselves mired in, and I will be writing about her and about those conversations here, in the future. No matter what she was going through,
and it was always, frankly, sheer hell–every day of her life, since 2005, she faced, acute grief, sadistic persecution, wild injustice, relentless battle, and deep betrayal–she was always there for her friends, and she never descended to human ugliness. She always tried to take the high road.
She always tried to be stronger than any human being could ever be asked to be. I feared for her life, always. I feared the battle would kill her,
as I have felt it could kill me, if I couldn’t find enough beauty to offset the malevolence. This is a deeply occult battle, and Christine got caught in its darkest shadows.
She had apparently been on a radical cleansing and detox regimen that had sickened her and left her very weak, dehydrated, and unable to breathe. She was shortly thereafter diagnosed with pneumonia and
placed on IV antibiotics and rehydration. But she didn’t make it.
Those who loved her, as I did, have our own interpretations of what ultimately killed her–a combination of unrelenting heartbreak and the
effect of being subject to a constant, unrelenting media driven hate campaign, despite the complete legal clearing of her name in the death of
her daughter Eliza Jane in 2005, who died after taking an antibiotic, and whose cause of death has been tortuously debated. Christine and her
husband Robin were denied the right to adopt a child, or foster a child, due to a single article in the L.A. Times which cast her as a murderer.
Here below is the letter that Robin Scovill sent out. I ask that people try to respect this family’s agony, and refrain from hurtful speculation in
whatever they choose to comment. We all agree that it is imperative that an impartial and thorough autopsy bring to light all facts about Christine’s
cause of death, and the state of her immune system, and how these facts might bring us all closer to the ultimate truth we all seek.
She had been HIV positive since 1990, and never had an AIDS defining illness. Her foes have predictably begun their attacks, and there is already
a misleading statement from the LA County Coroner’s office, against whom Christine was scheduled to testify two days from when she died, stating that she had had pneumonia for six months. This is incorrect, but helps foster the impression that it was an AIDS related pneumonia (PCP)
which is a longer term illness.
Here’s Christine’s husband Robin Scovill:
Dear Friends,
It is with deep sorrow that I tell you my wife, Christine Maggiore died unexpectedly on December 27th. She leaves behind our son, Charlie
and the memory of our daughter, Eliza Jane.
Christine was a beacon of hope for many people whose lives, like her own, had been turned upside down by an HIV positive diagnosis. When she received this devastating label in 1992, Christine—in spite of
predictions that she had five years to live—did not give up, but devoted her life to helping others. For several years she was a public speaker for
AIDS Project Los Angeles, LA Shanti Foundation and was a founding board member of Women At Risk.
It was in the process of trying to find a doctor that she felt comfortable dying with that Christine starting getting conflicting information from AIDS
experts, particularly troubling in the search to save her own life. One doctor in particular suggested that Christine retest and she finally did,
testing HIV negative, positive and indeterminate over a dozen times in subsequent months. She was shocked. Christine took her questions and
confusion to the very AIDS organizations that she was helping to build and their unanimous dismissal of her inquiries forced Christine to look
outward.
This series of events profoundly shook her faith in mainstream AIDS beliefs and sent her down a rabbit hole of exploration that would challenge
everything that she had been lead to believe.
Over the subsequent years, Christine’s research put her in touch with people all over the world whose work and commitment to open dialog and
debate caused her to rethink everything she had been taught to teach others about HIV and AIDS. Most importantly, it led her to question the
absolute assertion that an HIV positive diagnosis meant she had to die.
In 1995, Christine set out to assemble a three-fold brochure outlining a series of facts that had been most compelling in her search for truth. That
brochure turned into the first incarnation of her seminal book, What If Everything You Thought You Knew About AIDS Was Wrong? It took Christine years to unearth the many studies, writings and facts that began to alleviate the shame and terror of her HIV diagnosis. Her desire was to create something concise and informative and empowering that she could give to others who had received a similar diagnosis and who were ashamed and terrified and alone.
Christine’s book—now in it’s 4th edition— has been translated into seven languages; her monumental work with her non-profit organization, Alive
and Well AIDS Alternatives, has redefined what we think about AIDS; and her tireless communications, writings and pod casts have touched thousands of lives around the world and continue to provide a beacon of hope for anyone who lives in fear of AIDS.
In spite of Christine’s strength, she was also under tremendous pressure and scrutiny. She often felt that she wasn’t allowed to get sick like other
people. After her daughter died in 2005 of an allergic reaction to an antibiotic for an ear infection, the LA County Coroner—ignoring evidence
to the contrary—declared it a death from AIDS and Christine’s suffering increased horribly. She was vilified in the world media and harassed by
outspoken opponents of her work who openly gloated that this was her just comeuppance. She and her family endured a yearlong criminal investigation that not only terrorized them, but also robbed them of an opportunity to mourn the loss of their daughter. That loss was twisted into
sensationalized and mean spirited television episodes that portrayed Christine as a quack and a murderer and ultimately as dead. Christine
never fully recovered from the unjust treatment that she received around the loss of Eliza Jane and that treatment ultimately exhausted her.
A week and a half ago, Christine was diagnosed with bilateral pneumonia and did not conjure the strength to overcome it. She died unexpectedly in
her home with her husband and a dear friend. Christine Maggiore’s death is a shock and devastating blow to her family and to the thousands of people around the world who loved and respected her.
For anyone who lives in fear of an HIV or AIDS diagnosis, Christine’s legacy will live on. She was committed to sharing vital facts and essential
dialog that would give HIV positive people everywhere the chance to consider a destiny that differs from the one of death and despair that they
are taught to expect. For that she was loved.
Christine will be deeply missed.
A memorial will be planned within the next couple of weeks but please join us at our home tonight (Tuesday Dec. 30) for an informal gathering of
friends and family. Please bring your musical instruments.
We are gathering from 1pm today well into the night.
Our address is:
(address deleted here for privacy concerns-JS)
Wow. Jeremy responds with a wall of bullshit. (#88) I count at least 14 complete and utter pieces of denialist ignorance and crap crammed into one little post.
1. Antibodies are not indicative of any disease.
Bullshit. Antibody tests are among the most widely used serological tests used in medicine, not just for HIV but also for many other viruses, some bacteria, and also for some specific autoimmune conditions.
2. Antibodies are non-specific to a particular bug by their very nature – they will latch on to anything that is recognized as a foreign antigen.
Bullshit. Cross reactions to similar epitopes occur, but antibodies are created in response to specific antigens.
3. And the concept of antibodies prior to Gallo always was indicative of immune response, where they are now considered indicative of immune deficiency.
Nonsense. HIV antibodies are indicative of an immune response to HIV, irrespective of whether that HIV infection has resulted in appreciable cell-mediated immunodeficiency yet. Unfortunately, in confirmed seropositives that immune response is insufficient to eliminate HIV.
4. That was the point of vaccination. The very word vaccinate is based on the fact that antibodies to one bug can protect someone against another.
(if they are antigenically similar enough).
5. Smallpox was wiped out on the basis that antibodies to cowpox also attack smallpox.
Hang on – “antibodies to cowpox”? You just told us that “antibodies are not indicative of any disease”. Make up your mind.
6. Every human body has HIV antibodies according to the tests themselves.
Bullshit. Undiluted human serum added to an ELISA test well designed for 1/400th the concentration and at 20 times the proportion of blocking antibody instead of 1/20th the ratio will produce a whole lot of meaningless noise. That’s why you need to follow the instructions in the kit insert, not just randomly add reagents together to see what happens.
7. It’s just whether or not you have enough to reach their arbitrary threshold that determines whether the test is classed as positive or not.
Bullshit. Noise is not signal.
8. Semen in the blood can directly make HIV tests positive, as can antibodies to it.
Utter garbage. You are quoting a wild speculation by some Australian nutters as though it were demonstrated fact. They just made this up.
9. Semen is also immunosuppressive to a degree. Very large quantities from lots of different guys over a long period of time, possibly noticeably so.
Garbage. There is no evidence that receptive anal sex with uninfected partners produces the kind of immunosuppression seen in HIV/AIDS.
10. Black people are also more likely to show up positive because of naturally occurring higher Immuno-gamma-globulin levels.
Bullshit. HIV is detectable in all seropositive people, irrespective of race. Seropositive Black people develop AIDS and die from it at the same rates as seropositive people of any race.
11. Also, one of 70 or so known causes of a false-positive test is based on receptive anal sex, popular with gay bottoms, of course.
Garbage. There is no evidence at all that receptive anal sex with uninfected partners causes false positive tests. As many of the readers of this blog will attest.
12. Lots of anal sex causes an antibody response.
No it doesn’t, not if the insertive partner is uninfected.
13. Western Blot test which is supposedly more specific used in America has effectively been banned by the Public Health Laboratory in the UK for years because it is “Non-specific, irreproducible, and difficult to interpret, and should never have been let out of the lab”.
No it hasn’t. I’ve linked the latest UK diagnostic guidelines above. WB is one of a number of supplementary/”confirmatory” tests available throughout Europe, including in the UK.
14. Analysis of the protein bands in Western Blot tests shows that all the bands can be produced by proteins from places other than HIV. So none of the bands that are allegedly specific to HIV are in actual fact specific to it at all.
Irrelevant. Specificity is a measure, not a yes-no proposition. Any single antibody can potentially bind with cross reacting epitopes – which is why you need multiple bands within a WB together with other tests in order to make a positive diagnosis with high PPV.
Frank, why do you feel the need to have a discussion with Jeremy Steele, a guy who at the age of 42, his life accomplishments consist of a porn video in which he’s taking a crap while jerking off and copying and pasting piles of horse shit from fringe blogs on a porn message board? I mean can’t you see this guy is a lunatic? Jeremy Steele AKA Germy Steal is good for the entertainment and free laughs, but beyond that, he has nothing to offer, and the day anybody with half a brain takes him and his garbage seriously will be a cold day in hell.
And if you’re reading this, Jeremy, I hope through some miracle you get a life and find something productive to do instead of wasting so much time and space for nothing.
And since you love to bring up Christine Maggiore and Eliza Jane over and over:
There are plenty of reasons why people can have a cough and lose weight, and then, be diagnosed with pneumonia or tuberculosis.
Face it Jeremy, she died of the AIDS-defining condition PCP, the same kind of pneumonia as her daughter died from three years earlier. Her family had an autopsy done, and her denialist “friends” posted the salient findings on the net without realising what they were doing. The pathologist found:
“severe pulmonary edema and congestion. Christine’s right and left lungs weighted 1319 and 1307 g, respectively. Microscopic examinations of H & E stained sections of her lungs demonstrated severe congestion and edema. There was marked alveolar distention by frothy eosinophilic proteinaceous exudates. Diffuse alveolar damage was noted in both lungs. There was also proliferation of type 2 pneumocytes with modest infiltrates of acute and chronic inflammatory cells… In addition, growth of Pneumocystis jiroveci (carinii) was observed on the H & E stained sections of lungs, liver, pancreas, spleen, kidneys, and bone marrow and confirmed on the Gomori methenamine silver (GMS) preparation.”
That’s PCP, Jeremy.
You’re right, Colonel.
It’s just that sometimes when I see lies posted on the net I get the urge to point them out, especially if they endanger peoples health.
But yeah, I’m probably wasting my time here. If anyone hasn’t worked out that Jeremy is totally unreliable on HIV/AIDS by now, then they probably never will.
As I’ve already stated, Frank, antibodies are indicative of a disease if you have a specific disease or introduce an antigen or vaccination. Otherwise antibodies aren’t indicative of anything. Some labs say if you have say protein p-20 you’re infected. Other labs say otherwise. What is this nonsense, Frank? Nigga, please! This is medical witch-hunting!
If HIV tests are so specific, Frank, how do you explain this?????????:
Factors Known to Cause False-Positive HIV Antibody Test Results (If you like I can link each of the 64 sources):
Anti-carbohydrate antibodies
Naturally-occurring antibodies
Passive immunization: receipt of gamma globulin or immune globulin (as prophylaxis against infection which contains antibodies)
Leprosy
Tuberculosis
Mycobacterium avium
Systemic lupus erythematosus
Renal (kidney) failure
Hemodialysis/renal failure
Alpha interferon therapy in hemodialysis patients
Flu
Flu vaccination
Herpes simplex I
Herpes simplex II
Upper respiratory tract infection (cold or flu)
Recent viral infection or exposure to viral vaccines
Pregnancy in multiparous women
Malaria
High levels of circulating immune complexes
Hypergammaglobulinemia (high levels of antibodies)
False positives on other tests, including RPR (rapid plasma reagent) test for syphilis
Rheumatoid arthritis
Hepatitis B vaccination
Tetanus vaccination
Organ transplantation
Renal transplantation
Anti-lymphocyte antibodies
Anti-collagen antibodies (found in gay men, haemophiliacs, Africans of both sexes and people with leprosy)
Serum-positive for rheumatoid factor, antinuclear antibody (both found in rheumatoid arthritis and other autoantibodies)
Autoimmune diseases: Systemic lupus erythematosus, scleroderma, connective tissue disease, dermatomyositis
Acute viral infections, DNA viral infections
Malignant neoplasms (cancers)
Alcoholic hepatitis/alcoholic liver disease
Primary sclerosing cholangitis
Hepatitis
“Sticky” blood (in Africans)
Antibodies with a high affinity for polystyrene (used in the test kits)
Blood transfusions, multiple blood transfusions
Multiple myeloma
HLA antibodies (to Class I and II leukocyte antigens)
Anti-smooth muscle antibody
Anti-parietal cell antibody
Anti-hepatitis A IgM (antibody)
Anti-Hbc IgM
Administration of human immunoglobulin preparations pooled before 1985
Haemophilia
Haematologic malignant disorders/lymphoma
Primary biliary cirrhosis
Stevens-Johnson syndrome,
Q-fever with associated hepatitis
Heat-treated specimens
Lipemic serum (blood with high levels of fat or lipids)
Haemolyzed serum (blood where haemoglobin is separated from the red cells)
Hyperbilirubinemia
Globulins produced during polyclonal gammopathies (which are seen in AIDS risk groups)
Healthy individuals as a result of poorly-understood cross-reactions
Normal human ribonucleoproteins
Other retroviruses
Anti-mitochondrial antibodies
Anti-nuclear antibodies Anti-microsomal antibodies
T-cell leukocyte antigen antibodies
Proteins on the filter paper
Epstein-Barr virus
Visceral leishmaniasis
Receptive anal sex
Frank says:
‘It’s just that sometimes when I see lies posted on the net I get the urge to point them out, especially if they endanger peoples health.’
You have a legitimate and reasonable concern, Frank, and unlike Jeremy Steele, you’re well educated in the science & medicine. You know what you’re talking about while Jeremy Steele only regurgitates garbage he gathers from various fringe blogs and at the end of the day, he doesn’t have a shred of faith in his claims. He has already demonstrated that by refusing to back up his words with action and participate in a HIV positive experiment in which he will be injected by HIV positive blood in front of a rolling camera and chronicle his HIV exposure in a documentary. He’s full of baloney and all he wants is a forum to vent out his all too predictable, middle age loser anger and frustration. You can continue to debate him and logically and scientifically prove how inaccurate and harmful his claims are, but just know who you’re dealing with. This guy is a lunatic and everybody in the adult industry knows that.
If you walk into any homeless bum in Hollywood Blvd. they all have a nice conspiracy tale to tell you, some about how shape shifting lizards control the world, some about how The Illuminati murdered Michael Jackson, and some about how the reality as we know it does not exist and we’re living in a holographic universe; and it doesn’t matter how you try to convince them otherwise. The fact of the matter is that they live in denial, they refuse to accept reality and admit they are responsible for their failures in life. Their belief is their defense mechanism, as long as they blame everything that is wrong in the world on somebody else, whether a bunch of old men in dark suits or shape shifting lizards or whatever they make up in their fragile minds, they can sleep at night, convinced and rest assured it’s everybody’s fault but theirs and there are mysterious, sinister forces at work that are far greater than them and because of those forces, they are being repressed and there’s nothing they can do about that expect for “exposing” those forces. Therefore, they continue to be losers until the day they die. That’s the sad but true reality of our times.
What the hell happened to my post, Cindi?
If there is a known disease and there are antibodies, then those antibodies can be attributed to the disease. Likewise if if a vaccine or specific foreign antigen is introduced to the body. Otherwise antibodies are non-specific. That’s why Elisa tests have 70 known causes of false postives, including pregnancy, the flu and drug use, to name but a small few.
Factors Known to Cause False-Positive HIV Antibody Test Results (I’ll just list the first few as LIB has expressed an antibody response to my attempts at posting this):
Anti-carbohydrate antibodies, Naturally-occurring antibodies, Passive immunization: receipt of gamma globulin or immune globulin (as prophylaxis against infection which contains antibodies), Leprosy, Tuberculosis, Mycobacterium avium, Systemic lupus erythematosus, Renal (kidney) failure, Hemodialysis/renal failure, Alpha interferon therapy in hemodialysis patients, Flu, Flu vaccination, Herpes simplex I, Herpes simplex II, Upper respiratory tract infection, Recent viral infection or exposure to viral vaccines…
Pregnancy in multiparous women
Malaria High levels of circulating immune complexes
Hypergammaglobulinemia (high levels of antibodies) False positives on other tests, including RPR (rapid plasma reagent) test for syphilis Rheumatoid arthritis (Hepatitis B vaccination)
Tetanus vaccination
Organ transplantation
Renal transplantation Anti-lymphocyte antibodies
Anti-collagen antibodies (found in gay men, haemophiliacs, Africans of both sexes and people with leprosy)
Serum-positive for rheumatoid factor, antinuclear antibody (both found in rheumatoid arthritis and other autoantibodies)…
Autoimmune diseases
Systemic lupus erythematosus, scleroderma, connective tissue disease, dermatomyositis
Acute viral infections, DNA viral infections
Malignant neoplasms (cancers)
Alcoholic hepatitis/alcoholic liver disease
Primary sclerosing cholangitis
Hepatitis
“Sticky” blood (in Africans)
Antibodies with a high affinity for polystyrene (used in the test kits)
Blood transfusions, multiple blood transfusions Multiple myeloma
HLA antibodies (to Class I and II leukocyte antigens)Anti-smooth muscle antibody
Anti-parietal cell antibody
Anti-hepatitis A IgM (antibody)
Anti-Hbc IgM
Administration of human immunoglobulin preparations pooled before 1985
Haemophilia
Haematologic malignant disorders/lymphoma
Primary biliary cirrhosis…
I’m having continual technical difficulties listing that last batch of causes of false postives for some reason… anyway….
There are 64 references to all of these things which are known to have caused false postives. Perhaps Frank will deny that false positives occur. He’ll probably concede that but how do two different “presumptive” non-specific tests confirm each other?
I’LL TRY ONCE MORE!!!!!!!!!!!
Stevens-Johnson syndrome,
Q-fever with associated hepatitis,
Heat-treated specimens,
Lipemic serum (blood with high levels of fat or lipids),
Haemolyzed serum (blood where haemoglobin is separated from the red cells),
Hyperbilirubinemia,
Globulins produced during polyclonal gammopathies (which are seen in AIDS risk groups),
Healthy individuals as a result of poorly-understood cross-reactions,
Normal human ribonucleoproteins,
Other retroviruses,
Anti-mitochondrial antibodies,
Anti-nuclear antibodies,
Anti-microsomal antibodies
T-cell leukocyte antigen antibodies,
Proteins on the filter paper,
Epstein-Barr virus,
Visceral leishmaniasis,
Receptive anal sex.
And why to you keep parading your lies about Christine and Eliza, Frank?
The Los Angeles County Coroner was sued by Maggiore and her husband, Robin Scovill, for publicly attributing the May 2005 death of their daughter Eliza Jane to AIDS.
Journalist Celia Farber wrote about it some time ago, she talked to toxicologist Dr. Andrew Maniotis, who said they’d done a lymphocyte count on Eliza Jane when she was admitted to the hospital, and that it was 10,800 cells per milliliter. That’s a high count, and according to him means she couldn’t have been immune depressed.
Here’s the LA Times article by Molly Hennessy-Fiske
who’s done a lot of coverage on the current AHF and OSHA condom issue:
CALIFORNIA BRIEFING
L.A. County settles suit on autopsy of HIV skeptics’ daughter
March 6, 2009
LOS ANGELES COUNTY
Suit settled on autopsy of HIV skeptics’ child
Los Angeles County has reached a $15,000 legal settlement with the husband of Christine Maggiore, the late activist who rejected medical opinions that HIV causes AIDS.
Maggiore and her husband, Robin Scovill, sued the county two years ago for allegedly violating their late 3-year-old daughter’s civil rights by releasing an autopsy report that listed her cause of death as AIDS-related pneumonia. Eliza Jane Scovill had never been tested for HIV, and the couple argued that her death was not AIDS-related. They hired a private pathologist who said she had died of an allergic reaction to the antibiotic amoxicillin.
The lawsuit demanded up to $10,000 for each violation of Eliza Jane’s right to privacy, plus unspecified damages. Lawyers for the county and Scovill reached an agreement Feb. 26. Neither side returned phone calls on the matter Thursday.
Maggiore was diagnosed with HIV in 1992 and died at her Van Nuys home Dec. 27, 2008, at age 52. She promoted her views in a book, “What If Everything You Thought You Knew About AIDS Was Wrong?”
Maggiore gave birth to Eliza Jane and her older son, Charlie, at home and breast-fed both, although research indicates breast-feeding increases the risk of HIV transmission. Maggiore also opposed the use of AZT, a drug that studies have shown reduces the risk of HIV transmission from pregnant mothers to their babies. After Eliza Jane’s death, Los Angeles police investigated whether Maggiore and Scovill were criminally negligent in not testing the girl for HIV, but prosecutors decided against filing charges, noting that Maggiore had sought medical advice.
– Molly Hennessy-Fiske
And why do you keep parading your lies about Christine and Eliza, Frank?
The Los Angeles County Coroner was sued by Maggiore and her husband, Robin Scovill, for publicly attributing the May 2005 death of their daughter Eliza Jane to AIDS.
Journalist Celia Farber wrote about it some time ago, she talked to toxicologist Dr. Andrew Maniotis, who said they’d done a lymphocyte count on Eliza Jane when she was admitted to the hospital, and that it was 10,800 cells per milliliter. That’s a high count, and according to him means she couldn’t have been immune depressed.
Molly Hennessy-Fiske who’s reported on the current AHF/OSHA related condom issue in porn also wrote about how “Los Angeles County has reached a $15,000 legal settlement with the husband of Christine Maggiore, the late activist who rejected medical opinions that HIV causes AIDS”.
Christine’s husband got paid off. Sounds strange that they would do that to an alleged “murderer”.
Just face it, Frank. You are a liar. You don’t care about finding the truth, just protecting your interests.
Agree with most of what you say, Colonel, except the bit about Jeremy not having a shred of faith in his claims. I’m fairly sure he absolutely believes what he’s saying is true, and will continue to believe this, no matter how many times you confront his delusions with actual facts and evidence. That’s the nature of delusions.
Delusions are a common feature of chronic mental illness as you point out, but it’s also important to remember that many otherwise relatively normal people who are not psychotic can also have fixed and unshakeable beliefs that are not amenable to reason, logic or evidence. I don’t think for one moment that there is anything I can say that will result in Jeremy saying, “Gosh, you’re right. HIV is the cause of AIDS.” He’s too deep into the cult.
The AIDS-denialist cult has caused enormous damage to countless individuals, of whom Christine Maggiore and her child are just two examples who might be familiar to LA residents. When AIDS denialism infiltrates government policy, as it did in South Africa between 2000-2005, the death toll can be in the hundreds of thousands.
This latest issue between AHF, AIM, performers, producers, the LA County’s Department of Public Health and other interested players is complex and difficult. Personally, I don’t have the answers, but it’s been fascinating to watch the legitimate and informed debate, for example between Joe and Michael above.
Unfortunately, the AIDS-denialists, spearheaded by Clark Baker through Jeremy Steele have been trying to take advantage of the confusion as an opportunity to proselytize for their cult. There is nothing accidental about the timing. They are opportunists who have been doing this sort of stuff for years.
But yeah, in refuting Jeremy’s and Clark’s AIDS denialist bullshit I’ve probably gone into overkill. I’ll leave you guys to sort out the real issue, which is how to conduct a viable economic adult film industry which ensuring reasonable standards of workplace safety for performers.
For anyone still interested, an introductory overview of the HIV/AIDS denialist cult is here:
http://www.thebody.com/content/art57918.html
Frank says:
‘In refuting Jeremy’s and Clark’s AIDS denialist bullshit I’ve probably gone into overkill.’
I enjoy reading your comments and would like to read more. I only reminded you while debating with Jeremy Steele, keep in mind that you’re dealing with a lunatic, not a normal person.
And Jeremy, despite all the bullshit you spread, here is what I’d like to know: If the next time you test at AIM they tell you that you’re HIV positive, what are you going to do? Will you:
A. Seek a second opinion, and if so whose opinion and why?
B. Seek medical treatment or try to cure yourself with water and nutritious?
C. Tell your friends and loved ones about your condition or keep it secret?
D. Continue to have sex with your friend Lucky Starr, with or without condom?
In short, I’d like to know if /when facing an actual threat, how you are going to handle it. Will you get off your wooden horse and start making some fucking sense or are you crazy enough to kill yourself just like your lunatic AIDS denialist friend Christine Maggiore? And give me a clear, straight answer, I don’t need to hear your regurgitated conspiracy horse shit.
If they tell me I’m positive, I’ll call Larry H. Parker, because he will fight for me. And then I’ll invite Clark “Kent” Baker to act as an advisor. Then I’ll be in the next Larry H. Parker commercial telling you that you should “get all you can!”
If I lose my case, I’ll go to Africa and try to find that green monkey and give him a piece of my mind. If I was told I was infected with a deadly sexually transmitted disease I would be having a lot of sex with myself and that’s it. Or if the Department of Health desides that wearing 6 condoms at once is safe enough I will follow their guidelines, and what ever other holy scripture they tell me.
Jeremy Steele says:
‘I’ll invite Clark “Kent” Baker to act as an advisor.’
HAHAHAHAHA
That was a good one, man.
Look up the sky. It’s a bird, it’s a plane, no, it’s Clark Baker.
HAHAHAHAHA
I’m glad you haven’t completely lost your mind yet.
Maybe there’s still hope.
– Agent Fox Molder in The X-Files
d3cides, i meant decides
… And in case you didn’t know, I wasn’t mocking Clark, Colonel. He ain’t wearing any tights and cape, but he’s still flying above towering obstacles and the mind-forged-manacled-masses in the name of Truth, Justice and American way.
CB’s gonna take on the TV and AZT, HIV and the CDC. Then for the AHF and whatever’s left, but only if you ask, otherwise I guess he won’t exist and everyone can continue on with the pursuits of business, as usual, and happiness.
*sigh* Yet another lie from Jeremy as he frantically tries to deny reality in favor of his delusions.
“The Los Angeles County Coroner was sued by Maggiore and her husband, Robin Scovill, for publicly attributing the May 2005 death of their daughter Eliza Jane to AIDS.”
The LA coroner’s office was sued for publicly releasing Eliza Jane’s autopsy report, not for its content. This was a supposed breach of confidential medical information case, not a negligent diagnosis case.
Eliza Jane died of AIDS. No one who is medically qualified has ever credibly disputed this. What was in dispute was whether the LA Coroner’s Office had the legal right to publicly release the autopsy report given Californian confidentiality laws. Rather than make taxpayers go through the expense of fighting this, the LA Coroner settled for an extremely cheap $15G to Robin Scovill. His wife who brought the case had already died of AIDS by this time.
The irony, of course, is that the denialists unashamedly used the child’s supposed good health in an extensive and organised propaganda campaign to claim that HIV transmission from mother to baby was either non-existent or of no concern. Robin Scovill himself unashamedly exhibited his own child in this way in his 2004 propaganda film “The other side of AIDS”. As it turned out, Eliza Jane died a few weeks after the film was released.
When the poor kid used as a poster child died of AIDS, the denialists suddenly got all precious about confidentiality. Fuck them. They lied, and they need to be held accountable. Breaching the child’s “confidentiality” after she’s died does no harm to her but can help prevent other kids being victimised by cults like the AIDS denialists in the same way.
You can read the full autopsy report on the net. Any attempt to remove it from the net will result in multiple further copies being posted, in line with the Streisand Effect (look it up in wikipedia if you don’t know what this is).
Jeremy Steele says:
‘Clark ain’t wearing any tights and cape, but he’s still flying above towering obstacles and the mind-forged-manacled-masses in the name of Truth, Justice and American way.’
HAHAHAHAHA
I think Clark is too fat to fly, but if you say he flies, then probably it’s true.
Germy Steal lives. More Germy Steal-ness, please.
Mr. Steele,
I will say this one time, and one time only.
Never in my 20 plus years of laboratory experience, in which I have sold countless thousands of HIV tests, has any information such as race, drug addiction, sexual orientation,etc. been used to make a clinical decision on any HIV test. And as is routine procedure in most labs, we send specimens to other labs to confirm results, and never has any of this type of information been forwarded to the other lab, simply becuase we never had that information in the first place. As far as the adult industry goes we never recieved anything but a name and an ID numver, absolutely nothing else.
I will not debate this entire issue with you here, but I feel compelled to respond to accusations that directly implicate me and the companies I worked for. My offer to bring you to a lab to see for yourself still stands. Contractual obligations forbid me from doing an interview with you, but that doesnt mean we cant sit doun and talk about these issues.
Tritchtm@ca.rr.com
You lie Frank saying Eliza died of AIDS.
Eliza never tested positive for HIV, not even in the autopsy. Instead, once the coroner found out it was Christine’s kid, they simply declared it to be AIDS even though all the symptoms the child showed looked like a pretty simple case of an allergic reaction to penicillin.
She was perfectly healthy with no issues at all until she got an earache and sniffles. The autopsy even confirmed that at the the time of death, the child’s leukocyte count was elevated–if she had a suppressed immune system, it wouldn’t have been. Also, if her immune system was depressed, she shouldn’t have had a severe allergic reaction to an antibiotic.
Again, you’re in the worst case of denialism I’ve ever seen Frank. There are countless examples of how extremely sick people get and the enormous, intolerable level of AGONY they experience once they start taking AZT, a DNA TERMINATOR with skull and crossbones on it, originally shelved as “far too toxic for human consumption”. It has been proven that AZT causes (and if you have any common sense after reading the ingredients) SEVERE BIRTH DEFECTS and STILLBIRTHS! So even if it’s an indisputable fact that HIV causes AIDS (which it hardly is. Look at Gallos original data. It fails Koch’s Postulates), look at the “therapy” she was compelled to take and have her fragile fetus imbibe, when she was never sick herself. AIDS drugs = INFANTICIDE!
I DARE you to take some AZT and see how sick it gets you, Frank. Have you ever spoken to and/or monitored anyone who’ve taken AZT?
Eliza died of an obvious anaphilactic shock from her first time on antibiotics. You continue to dance on her grave decrying “denialist” just as the likes of you harrassed Christine for expressing her patient’s rights.
Just a few weeks prior to Christine’s death, the tv show Law and Order SVU, had done an episode based on Christine, that portrayed a psychotic mother who was the cause of her childs death by not giving the child aids meds. At the end of the episode, the mother also died. Christine very much internalized this by saying “That is what they want me to be. They all want me to die”.
Do you know the effect that stress has on the immune system? This is supported by studies showing that colds and other infections manifest themselves on weekends after busy and stressful work weeks. Stress raises catecholamine and CD8 levels, which suppresses the immune system. This suppression, in turn, raises the risk of viral infection. I suppose you’d advocate AZT for anyone under constant stress and harrassment, as well.
The only thing that surprises those of us who knew her, was that she had come this far without a major emotional and physical breakdown. It’s the likes of you that can rightly be accused of bearing responsibility for her death, following the loss of her daughter who was not immune suppressed and was HIV negative at the time of her death.
You know osteoporosis is more common in HIV+ I bet if it turns out Maggiore had broken an ankle you will come on here and rai against denialists who dare call it a bone fracture when it’s obviously AIDS.
“Pneumonia is a lung disease that can be caused by a variety of viruses, bacteria, and sometimes fungi. The U.S. Centers for Diseases Control and Prevention (CDC) estimate nearly 90,000 people in the United States died from one of several kinds of pneumonia in 1999.”
If you have “HIV antibodies” and pneumonia you have AIDS, w/o antibodies it is just pneumonia. It is a hypothesis solely based on correlation, and correlation does not prove causation. Even a 100% correlation doesn’t prove anything since all people that die of old age have wrinkles, although that hardly means that wrinkles cause death in old people!
There is also a near 100% correlation between people who eat ice cream and people that die of pneumonia!
In case you didn’t know Christine presumptive diagnoses (which is what they, by their own definition, are) originally tested
positive, then negative, then indetermine and back again. And the drugs she took which made her agonizingly sick go figure how hard it is to trust the establisment people like Frank self-evidently prosper from.
The disease we all call AIDS is obviously not a reality. It is so obviously, now even according to you, a non-existent disease but is nothing more than a mere medical/scientific relabeling of every illness ever to be suffered by those diagnosed hiv positive all lumped together and called AIDS.
Christine agreed with you too, as she so often pointed out that anyone who is hiv negative and dies of pneumonia, simply died of pneumonia.
BUT
All who are labeled as hiv positive by the non-specific hiv tests who die of pneumonia, strangely, died mysteriously, of the new label created specifically for them: AIDS.
Colonel, Frank,
This is getting too ridiculous. Why are we giving these guys the time of day? Nothing new is being said here. This went on for over 500 comments the firs time. The only way to end this nonsense is to ignore it. Clark and Jeremy have no where else to spout their baloney. Let them play with themselves.
Lets stop feeding into this.
Everything has been said. Giving these guys this forum here is exactly what they want, becuase they dont have anywhere else to go.
Please, lets stop this madness. LIB is not the place for this debate, but it is the only place that Jeremy and Clark have. Lets stop giving them exactly what they want.
Lets all go drink a bunch of water and eat healthy meals, and cure us of this scurge that has infected LIB.
Sorry, 3rd to last paragraph down should’ve “It should be obvious to even you that AIDS is a reshuffling of old diseases under one label”, and in the next paragraph I meant to say Christine would not dispute that people who die of pneumonia die of pneumonia. Pneumonia exists and has existed outside the realm of HIV and AIDS.
http://letterstotheempire.com/2009/01/04/aids-bottom-feeders-line-up-for-a-feast-on-the-dead/
http://letterstotheempire.com/2009/01/01/what-killed-christine-maggiore/
@Michael,
You mentioed EDD citations. I mentioned aces still up the sleeves of AHF.
AHF has all the time an money in the world. Do you think they are firing all their shots already?
And I am sure you remember that AFH has filed complaints against the agents for not ascertaining thw safety of the wordplace to which they send their perfomrers, as is required by law. AHF has more shit lined up for the adult industry than they have already put out there. The stuff they have done so far is small potatos compared to what is coming, the EDD complaints being just one thing. And having guys like Steve Hirsh making public statements on film about requiring HIV tests isnt going to help the industry either. And having the agents release a public statement about not booking talent with gay crossover talent isnt going to help much either.
Could the industry possibly make it any easier for these guys?
@joe know — I for one am not all that impressed by Weinstein’s legal threats. AHF has been thrown out of court plenty of times — on many different issues, not just porn.
But you’ve put your finger on something here — this is a program of intimidation, first and foremost, regardless of legal merit. Annoyance becomes harassment, and the game gets stepped-up.
Do you really think that everyone in the industry, including Larry Flynt, is going to refuse to put up a fight? So far, AHF and its co-conspirators have not affected the bottom-line of the producers in any meaningful way. Up until this point, this has been a case of Michael Weinstein shadow-boxing because the big producers have refused to react to his grandstanding, and idiotic demonstrations (such as those outside Flynt’s offices on Wilshire Blvd). You seem to think that the adult production industry doesn’t have any fight in it — I say it hasn’t yet chosen to fight. Personally, I think it should have done more, sooner, but, again, the industry is not the most organized or responsive except in times of persecution. Buddy, by now EVERYONE sees that it is here, and that time is right NOW.
If you think porn is the only hornet’s nest to be opened here, you are sorely mistaken.
@Michael, before you make statements about Hustler putting up a fight, I suggest you do some research and find out what they did regarding all those complaints that AFH filed with OSHA against them. More like a white flag than a fight.
Yes, the game gets stepped up. And we are still at the bottom of the staircase.
I say it(adult industry) hasnt chosen to fight yet BECUASE, there hasnt been a battle that they could win. Dont engage the enemy in a fight that you cant win.(The first rule of war) And Flynt and Hirsch and a few of the other Big Guys are getting sick an tired of footing the bill for the entire indsutry, a large part of which will continue to look out only for their own bottom line and keep maiking it easy for the AHF,,,like treasure Media announcing that they are signing HIV+ perfomrers to contracts to perform.
Here’s an ACE Michael, OSHA,County,AHF are not going to make the seperation between the straight and gay industry. If the gay industry is advertising that they are hiring HIV+ performers, dont you think that just opens the door for mandatory condoms. I would be interested in your opinion about how this affects the industry’s ability to fight the condom issue. Again, I see this as an example of ONE company putting themselves and their interests ahead of the entire industry, and giving a solid case to the AHF<OSHA, and others to make a case for mandatory condoms.
The straight industry can say what they want. The gay industry knowingly hires HIV+ perfomrers. And the crossover situation that just occured isnt helping either. Didnt VIVID recently hire a crossover performer to star in their Superman movie? How smart was that to do right in the middle of this battle?
@joe know – I am far more aware than you give me credit, and, to answer the running theme of your questions: No, I do NOT agree with your characterizations of virtually any aspect of this issue.
The party line of guys like Weinstein and Kerndt is that the message — THE CONTENT — of porn needs to be altered. That is the philosophy that is driving this crusade. They have stated this time and time again. Are you so obtuse as to not see the constitutional ramifications? Guys like Paul Morris at Treasure Island are forcing the issue — and AHF et al are stupid enough to take the bait. The condom issue is a minor front in a much larger war.
@ichael,
Are you so obtuse as to not conced one sigle point, even in the face of 3000 std infected perfomers with just goo/chlam alone in the last few years. Funny how industry apologists like yourself will always ignore this simle and proven fact. Whether or not these over 3000 performers got their illness on set, perhaps you could do some simple math and see how many thousand others are being exposed.
And are you trying to insinuate that Treasure Media is doing this on purpose to create that court case. You just jumped the shark.
Treasure Media is not forcing the issue, they are handing indisputable evidence of the need for mandatory condoms to the other side.
And you should read the rest of OSHA regulation 5193, the part that requires employers to pay for post exposure testing and treatment. Anohter convieneintly never mentioned part of this battle from anyone on the industry side(aonother one of those aces)
Is there any single point in this battle that you are willing to concede, or do you just prefer to pretend that the industry is 100% correct and is doing nothing wrong. That position is NEVER going to win, just like threatening to make things worse is never going to win.
Thats an easy one,,,Do you really think that threatening to make things worse, go underground, with no testing, for perfomrers is a winning argument? I say no, whats your opinion. Or will you just dance around this becuase an honest answer wouldnt fit your agenda or motives. And sinsce you ascribe motives to everyone else, what are YOUR motives. Mine are to call bullshit where ever I see it, on either side.
IF the industry wants to make this battle about content, then one of them simply needs to fight the OSHA citations and make their case in court, which the industry has so far not done, even in the face of a multitude of opportunities.
And you answer to my questio about what do proc=ducers do was perfect. Producers demand that talent get tested befroe they hire thm, and pay for it themselves. Then,once on set, they do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, unless you can tell us what producers do besides emanding that performers test themselves?
I don’t expect anyone to answer or care about this question but if all HIV tests are known to have false positives (and since Tim even admits that different labs have different criteria on determining what equates to being “HIV+”) then how is it known that a “confirmatory” (or as Frank even admits, “supplemental”) positive test is not a false positive in addition to the first test being a possible false positive? How do two possible false positives = a positive?
Another question I have which I don’t expect anyone to care about or answer: Since pharmaceutical companies pay out billions for deaths caused by their drugs (aka Adverse Drug Reactions), why does no one in the AIDS establishment admit that their drugs can and do kill?
I think the answer has to do with the enormous amount of money/power/influence the AIDS industry commands so that we are not even allowed to think and dare ask these questions. But its because Christine refused to continue to take drugs that caused her enormous pain and sickness (before taking them she was fine) and push them on her unborn fragile child, that she was demonized and attacked for her personal choices, before and after her death.
As someone in the “House of Numbers” doc points out, due to all the hysteria and propaganda that’s been generated for years and years, many people are not capable of looking at AIDS LOGICALLY!
Mr. Steele,
Did you know that even finger print experts have different criteria, even in the same labs. Perhaps your friend Clark can explain this to you.
Your use of the word ‘admits’ seems to suggest that I am acknowledging something that was not common knowledge. I simply stated it as a fact, a fact that has never been hidden. Do you have an actual lab copy of one of your HIV tests from AIM? Perhaps you should read it, you might find some very enlightening information there. Do not try to twist my words to suit your agenda. My offer to show you the testing procedure first hand still stands.
But please, trying to insinuate that I “admitted” anything that fits your agenda is just plain wrong. There is nothing out of the ordinary about different labs, or even different technologists within the same lab having different criteria for determining results. Even police labs have technologists that have different criteia in determing something as simple as finger print matches. And this is no secret. You haven’t said a single thing here that I haven’t heard a thousand times before.
If you want to take me up on my ofer to bring you to the lab let me know, otherwise please refrain from attempting to twist my words, or pick apart individual words that I use to suit your agenda. Thank you.
I’m not accusing you of hiding anything Tim, nor do I accuse you of lying in regards to anything you’ve said so far. However evidence of corruption from the very, very beginnings with Gallo’s lab and his subsequent “Scientific misconduct” proceedings and firing from the NIH have corrupted the whole so-called science of AIDS, simply because it is ruled by money instead of truth. If you like I can dig up the resources which use guidelines of “risk factor” in regards to HIV diagnosis. That used to be the sole means of ascertaining HIV+ status in Africa, where they are too poor to test and no one really gives a fuck about feeding them and giving them clean water, but are religious about HIV testing and pushing toxic “therapy” drugs.
In regards to different criteria- I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT DIFFERENT PATHS TO REACHING THE SAME RESULT, I’M TALKING ABOUT DIFFERENT PATHS AND CRITERIA LEADING TO DIFFERENT RESULTS: A positive test in one lab will be a negative test in another lab. This has been shown to be the case. As the House of Numbers doc shows, one clinician decides two protein bands reacting “proves” HIV detection, whereas another clinician in the same lab decides that three arbitrary bands prove infection. Since there is no consistent standard there is no true science. Certainly there is no gold standard. That would be isolation of HIV, itself. Instead we have antibodies and proteins, etc. which are “believed” to be HIV specific. But how are proteins or antibodies specific to a disease in the absence of any symptoms of a disease itself? Are you not aware of the mega-huge list of known causes of false postives in HIV tests?
Now, if you can, would you mind answering my questions in my above two comments?
@joe know – Oh, I see, I’m an industry apologist, and you’re an unbiased, fair-minded individual who will call bullshit, whenever you see it, on either side.
Do you really think that any reader with an IQ greater than that of a handball buys that? You must pardon me, but, as the saying goes, I haven’t laughed so hard since I was a little girl.
As for my comment re: Treasure Media, or anything else I write, you are free to insinuate anything you like. I can’t stop you. But you risk being seen as either a fool, or one who would fool others, if you do.
Somehow I suspect you won’t be dissuaded, as you are clearly already convinced of the righteousness of your own agenda, while attempting so desperately (and failing so miserably), at pinning one on those who take issue with your own rabid, bitter point of view.
There is, however, one thing upon which we both can agree: you write, “If the industry wants to make this battle about content, then [it] simply needs to fight the OSHA citations and make [its] case in court.” Damn straight.
P.S. The next time to want to demand answers from me, or anyone else, send a subpoena.
Until then, I remain,
Yours truly,
MW
In response to Tim Tritch, although Scotland still uses it, the Western Blot was not part of the official recommended diagnostic strategy in England and Wales since either 1992 or 1993. This was confirmed in 2008 by Dr Mortimer himself speaking to Joan Shenton. The reason was that Dr Philip Mortimer, previously a senior Honcho in the Health Protection Agency (formerly Public Health Laboratory Services) said that the Western Blot was too unreliable and produced too many non-specific reactions, and told a researcher working for journalist Joan Shenton that it was “Non-specific, irreproducible, and hard to interpret”. In fact, he said it should have remained a research tool only. That doesn’t make the use of multiple ELISA’s instead any more logical, of course. I’ve personally seen multiple test results issued from the Health Protection Agency in the last couple of years and none of them used Western Blot.
Thanks for your assistance, Mike Hersee!
A PDF from the WHO and UNAIDS on “Operational Characteristics Of Commonly Available Assays To Detect Antibodies to HIV-1 And/Or HIV-2 in Human Sera Report 9-10 Geneva January 1998” confirms their guideline on HIV status being determined by their “risk factor”.
On page 6 it shows that in testing strategy III, if one of the tests is indeterminate it will be regarded as negative if ‘low risk’, but indeterminate in ‘high risk’ population. If indeterminate, another test is recommended for two weeks later, where they stand another chance of being fully diagnosed HIV+.
On page 3 it shows that different testing strategies are used depending on whether the person has any symptoms that could be intepreted as AIDS or not (eg, diarrhea, or malaria), and what the overall prevalence of disease is. So if you have malaria, being poverty stricken and not being able to afford an effective mosquito net, in an area where no-one else can afford one either, they’ll just use a single test to diagnose you positive. This is confirmed in the text, completely ignoring that both TB and Malaria, for example, have been acknowledged to trigger false positive HIV diagnoses.
By such a methodology, the perception of risk factors becomes self-reinforcing.
On page 3, it states, “When a single screening assay is used for testing in a population with a very low prevelence of HIV infection, the probability that a person is infected when a positive test result is obtained (i.e., the positive predictive value) is very low, since the majority of people with positive results are not infected…”
Also, “The most commonly used confirmatory test was the Western Blot (WB). However, its use has proved to be very expensive and can, under some conditions, produce a relatively large number of indeterminate results…”
Speaking of the WHO, it is my sincere hope that we all learn something here and that we “Won’t Get Fooled Again”!!!
Here’s a key point about Western Blot ‘confirmatory’ tests I’d like Tim Tritch to explain: For the sake of simplicity (because the principle is still valid), let’s imagine a western blot test with four bands, for a moment, and say that a positive diagnosis can be confirmed if any three of the four bands ‘light up’ above the threshold level. Now, if only two bands, let’s say, bands 1 and 2, light up, that would be either called negative or indeterminate. Essentially though, it would be recognition that both of those bands could be non-specific, because there is no third band. Now let’s suppose that on another person’s test, bands 3 and 4 light up, but that is also regarded as negative because there isn’t a third band, implying that bands 3 and 4 are non-specific reactions too – after all, that is the kind of problem that Dr Philip Mortimer of England and Wales virus reference laboratory at the Health Protection Agency said. So if all of the bands can, in the wrong combinations, be regarded as HIV negative and therefore non-specific, how come they suddenly become specific to HIV if the ‘right’ combination is lit up?
And if the bands all individually and in some combinations are regarded as non-specific, doesn’t that imply that the ELISA screening test when they are simply lumped together can also be non-specific?
Pray tell, Tim, exactly which tests you use where the manufacturers actually claim their tests can be used to diagnose actual HIV infection – not non-specific antigens like p24 or antibodies.
Now, if only two bands, let’s say, bands 1 and 2, light up, that would be either called negative or indeterminate… Now let’s suppose that on another person’s test, bands 3 and 4 light up, but that is also regarded as negative because there isn’t a third band
No, Mike. A negative Western Blot test result is one with no bands at all. The hypothetic situations you describe would be read as “indeterminate”.
“Indeterminate” means that the test result is neither positive or negative and that we need more information (including further testing) before a positive or negative diagnosis can be made with a sufficiently high predictive value.
And what the hell is a “non-specific antigen”? You are talking Word Salad.
@Frank,
well, p24 is non-specific. 43% of both healthy and unhealthy dogs had p24 in a study that showed that overall 50% of healthy and unhealthy dogs had at least some of the key supposedly-specific HIV antigens. For example, here is a quote from an official New York State Department of Health guide on testing pregnant women and children:
4. HIV Antigen Detection
In the past, p24 antigen detection was used by some centers. Because of sensitivity and
specificity problems, it is no longer considered a reliable method and should not be
used for diagnosis.
There is far more than that on the non-specificity of p24.
You are confused, Mike. There is no such thing as a “non-specific antigen”.
What can vary in specificity is the test used to identify that particular antigen. In the case of the dog study you are misrepresenting, the investigators used recombinant proteins from various lentiviral infections in other species (monkeys, cats, humans, goats) to look for cross reacting antibodies in dogs. Their conclusion was not that dogs have HIV-1 p24, but that they may have a lentivirus that is closely related to HIV-1.
P24 antigen tests are of little use in neonatal HIV diagnosis (which is what your quote-mine is talking about), mainly because they are too insensitive. Their main diagnostic use is in adults is in combination with antibody testing to identify early infection just prior to seroconversion. Their specificity in adults is high, but a positive p24 antigen test in babies born to HIV infected mothers may not be reliable to diagnose HIV infection because of transplacental transfer of antigen even when the baby is uninfected.
In this case the positive p24 antigen test is accurate and specific to p24, but it’s p24 produced by the mother’s infection, not the baby’s. It’s the same problem as using antibody tests in newborns.
While we’re waiting for Mike to work out that he is hopelessly mixed up about antigens and antibodies, here’s another gem from the brilliant scientific mind of Jeremy Steele (sorry, Joe – I couldn’t resist):
“So if you have malaria, being poverty stricken and not being able to afford an effective mosquito net, in an area where no-one else can afford one either, they’ll just use a single test to diagnose you positive.”
According to Jeremy, African physicians are too dumb to be able to distinguish malaria from stage III and IV HIV/AIDS.
Apparently, only fourth-rate Californian porn actors and bus drivers from Luton, England have that kind of clinical acumen.
Luton, Bedfordshire: where the barmaids eat their young.
Who the hell is this scumbag Mike Hersee? Listen you piece of shit, this is a porn message board, not a place to spread conspiracy/AIDS denialist crap. If you want to talk about the porn pussy and other adult related topics, knock yourself out. Otherwise, go fuck yourself. We already have the lunatic bukkake stunt cock Jeremy Steele AKA Germy Steal to regurgitate garbage from fringe blogs, there’s no need for you, but while you’re here, let me ask you this direct, simple question that Germy Steal and other members of your AIDS denialist cult cannot answer:
If you believe that HIV is a hoax, are you willing to demonstrate your faith in your claims and back up your words by some action and participate in a HIV positive experiment in which you will be injected with HIV positive blood in front of a rolling camera and chronicle your HIV exposure in a documentary?
Give me a clear, straight answer without blabbering conspiracy and pseudo-science horse shit. Let’s see how you’re going to dance around this direct, simple question, you circus monkey.
What a bunch of big, pathetic, fucking losers.
Colonel, Mike is the writer of one of those fringe blogs that Jeremy has been regurgitating here. He tells us he is “self educated” on HIV and AIDS. In real life, he works as a bus driver in the UK. He is delusional.
Check out the article he wrote about the time he went to Libya to offer himself as a “consultant” in the sad and bizarre case a few years ago when 400 children were infected with HIV in a children’s hospital because of poor infection control procedures. It’s called “Not Liberated in Libya”. Mike wanted to try to argue that the children weren’t actually infected with HIV – they all tested false positive because they had vaccinations.
The guy is off his nut.
I’m not familiar with this article you speak of, but vaccinations are one of the 70 or so listed known causes of false positives, Frank. Do you now deny that there are false positives? And why do you still avoid my other questions? Don’t try to worm your way out of this one with your “loony” epithets. We all know your stance; EVERYONE who disagrees with you is a loon…
The Western blot test looks for bands of proteins which are believed to be associated with HIV.
In the early days of Western blot testing, prior to 1987, it was believed that if protein p-24 (or gp-41 or both) was detected that you were “HIV+”, but then it was discovered that p-24 was the most common protein found and not exclusive to what they call “HIV” and that 40% of healthy people had a p-24 band as well as another band. This is why Philip Mortimer of UK Public Health Laboratory Services said “Western blot detection of HIV antibodies began as, and should have remained a research tool.” This is why the UK does not use the Western blot.
Frank said: “According to Jeremy, African physicians are too dumb to be able to distinguish malaria from stage III and IV HIV/AIDS.
Apparently, only fourth-rate Californian porn actors and bus drivers from Luton, England have that kind of clinical acumen”.
What’s with the “forth rate porn actor” comment, asshole? What does my alleged standing as a “porn actor” have to do with anything? Would I be smarter in biology if I was a 1st rate porn actor? Perhaps this is all getting to you, which is why you won’t answer certain questions.
It has nothing to do with doctors being dumb or not. Doctors in Africa are only following the guidelines laid down for them. They were performing presumptive diagnoses with no tests and declaring typical 3rd world diseases as AIDS diseases. AIDS diagnoses bring those clinicians money from WHO and AIDS organizations.
I’ll repeat myself: TB and Malaria, for example, have been acknowledged to trigger false positive HIV diagnoses. It’s not stupidity, Frank. It’s bullshit. The only difference between TB and TB/AIDS in Africa is a diagnosis of HIV attached to it. TB is one of the AIDS defining diseases. Or if they see you have diarrhea, they’ll likely say it’s an AIDS-related diarrhea so the WHO can send clinics MONEY! You know what money is, right Frank? It’s a real big and influential thing, especially in 3rd countries such as those in Africa. And you may not yet live in a 3rd country but I’m sure money talks in your language, too.
False positive what, Jeremy?
False positive initial screening EIAs, or false positive diagnoses on a completed diagnostic algorithm? (I outlined some standard diagnostic algorithms in post #83. In real life they can be a little more complicated than that – which is why you go to a doctor for a diagnosis, not a bus driver or a porn actor – but you can get a general idea of how they work from these.)
One of the ways denialists lie about HIV testing is to deliberately confuse the two, and hope that no one will notice that deception.
Or is it that are you too stupid to know the difference?
Jeremy whines:
“And why do you still avoid my other questions? Don’t try to worm your way out of this one with your “loony” epithets”
By repeatedly calling you out on each of your stupid lies, I have been testing the patience of other forum participants who are well and truly bored with your delusional idiocy I refuted fourteen of these ignorant lies in one post alone (see #92). I have refuted dozens of others on this thread and others.
Your response to each refutation has been to ignore it and simply move on to the next lie you have copy pasted from a nutcase website you saw somewhere. And whine.
You are, beyond any shadow of doubt, a loon.
Jeremy says:
“It’s bullshit. The only difference between TB and TB/AIDS in Africa is a diagnosis of HIV attached to it.”
Wow, Jeremy. I’m impressed. Not only can you take a shit and masturbate simultaneously on camera, but you are also an expert on infectious diseases in Africa, who can teach those native MDs a thing or two.
I’m sure that every infectious diseases physician on that continent can hardly wait to see what you post next.
You haven’t answered this question yet, Frank… I’ve asked several times:
How is the detection of antibodies absent a specific virus or disease (or symptoms of) indicative of any specific disease or syndrome (which by definition is a combination of old, unrelated diseases)?
Stop playing technical games to try to evade these questions. If all tests have potential false positives, then what’s to rule out that two false positives are misconstrued as a positive? You admitted that there is no confirmatory test; there is no gold standard in testing.
You also know of the testimony of people who have taken AIDS drugs, like AZT. They get violently and agonizingly sick afterwards. CDC says patients have rights, yet States have taken custody of children that are not forced AIDS drugs, even after their deadly side effects. I’ve asked you why does the AIDS industry act like AIDS drugs don’t kill when Big Pharm pays out billions?
If the UK won’t use Western blot, why do we?
Yeah, only a loon would ask such questions, right?
I’m only citing the experts, Frank. But according to you, they’re ALL loons. You can’t get yourself to claim Luc Montagnier is a loon. Instead you lie and state that his claim that HIV can be gotten rid of without drugs and with a good diet and exercise within two weeks was taken out of context. You lie and say he never said “HIV may be benign” when he declared that at the 1990 San Francisco AIDS conference. There are too many scientists with advanced degrees disputing your dogma for you to label them all “loons”. You only make yourself to be the loon or a liar, or both to make such bold claims. We’re not talking about just a handful of scientists here. I can provide 100s of quotes from academics and scientists that wouldn’t take your “loon” epithets too seriously. They’d certainly recognize them for simply being a sad, desperation tactic.
Jeremy claims:
“You haven’t answered this question yet, Frank… I’ve asked several times:
How is the detection of antibodies absent a specific virus or disease (or symptoms of) indicative of any specific disease or syndrome (which by definition is a combination of old, unrelated diseases)?”
You are lying again, Jeremy. You have not asked me that question before. You just slipped the “absent a specific virus” bit in and hoped that no-one would notice the extra bullshit ingredient in your word salad “question” that I answered in its original form elsewhere.
Short answer is that detection of antibodies associated with the specific disease AIDS is not “absent a virus”.
It is only your idiotic denialist mates (Val and Eleni) that claim that while having HIV antibodies is “highly correlated” with subsequently developing AIDS this almost perfect correlation occurs “absent a virus”.
Perhaps you should ask them why this is. Don’t forget to ask for evidence.
“Stop playing technical games to try to evade these questions.”
If you are too ignorant to understand “technical” answers then maybe you shouldn’t ask “technical” questions. Just saying.
Of course, as everyone can see, you haven’t a clue about “technical” questions or answers – you are simply parroting what you have read on your favorite websites. You’re a phony, Jeremy.
Frank says:
‘Mike Hersee is the writer of one of those fringe blogs that Jeremy has been regurgitating here. He tells us he is “self educated” on HIV and AIDS. In real life, he works as a bus driver in the UK.’
Looks like this is getting better and better, Frank. I don’t know anybody, and I mean anybody with half a brain and even less dignity who might be willing to learn medical and scientific, life and death facts from a porn mope or a bus driver. Germy Steal and Co. are making fools of themselves and wasting time and space.
You can’t get yourself to claim Luc Montagnier is a loon. Instead you lie and state that his claim that HIV can be gotten rid of without drugs and with a good diet and exercise within two weeks was taken out of context.
What utter crap, Jeremy. No one has ever cured themselves of chronic HIV infection “with a good diet and exercise within two weeks”, and Montagnier has never claimed this. What a stupid lie.
Montagnier said, in response to the dishonest internet campaign by denialist liars like yourself that his words were “taken out of its context in a film that glorifies the “Dissidents” and posted on Internet by a website that is searching for polemical debate”.
In other words, Montagnier himself is saying you are a liar.
By the way, I understand that when a 77 year old retired French academic says that something is “taken out of its context and posted on Internet by a website that is searching for polemical debate”, most of us would understand exactly the modern English word he means.
He mean (in common internet parlance) they’re “Trolling”.
For Tim:
“Interpreting HIV-1 Western Blot Results” – by Connie L. Celum, MC, MPH, Robert W. Coombs, MD, PhD University of Washington Seattle- The AIDS Reader May/June 1993:
“Clinicians must know the importance of interpreting the test results in the context of a person’s risk history…”
If HIV infection is so chronic, Frank, why the hell can’t they find any HIV?
AID$ Fundamentalists will protect their racket by claiming Luc was taken out of context. However, it turns out the entire unedited video of this interview is available on the internet to counter this bogus claim.
Here is a transcript between Brent Leung and Dr. Luc Montagnier:
Leung [the filmmaker]: You talked about oxidative stress earlier. Is treating oxidative stress one of the best ways to deal with the African AIDS epidemic?
Montagnier [the scientist]: I think this is one way to approach, to decrease the rate of transmission, because I believe HIV we can be exposed to HIV many times without being chronically infected, our immune system will get rid of the virus within a few weeks, if you have a good immune system; and this is the problem also of the African people. Their nutrition is not very equilibrated, they are in oxidative stress, even if they are not infected with HIV; so their immune system doesn’t work well already. So it’s prone, it can, you know, allow HIV to get in and persist. So there are many ways which are not the vaccine, the magic name, the vaccine, many ways to decrease the transmission just by simple measures of nutrition, giving antioxidants — proper antioxidants — hygiene measures, fighting the other infections. So they are not spectacular, but they could, you know, decrease very well the epidemic, to the level they are in occidental countries, western countries.
Leung: So if you have a good immune system, then your body can naturally get rid of HIV?
Montagnier: Yes.
Leung: Oh, interesting. Do you think we should have more of a push for antioxidants, and things of that nature, in Africa than antiretrovirals (AIDS drugs)?
Montagnier: We should push for more, you know, a combination of measures; antioxidants, nutrition advice, nutritions, fighting other infections — malaria, tuberculosis, parasitosis, worms — education of course, genital hygiene for women and men also, very simple measures which [are] not very expensive, but which could do a lot. And this is my, actually my worry about the many spectacular action for the global funds to buy drugs and so on, and Bill Gates and so on, for the vaccine. But you know those kind of measures are not very well funded, they’re not funded at all, or they are, you know, it really depends on the local government to take choice of this, but local governments they take advice of the scientific advisors from the intelligent institutions, and they don’t get this kind of advice very often.
Leung: Well there’s no money in nutrition, right? There’s no profit.
Montagnier: There’s no profit, yes. Water is important. Water is key.
Leung: Now one thing you said, you were talking about the fact that if you have a built immune system, it is possible to get rid of HIV naturally. If you take a poor African who’s been infected and you build up their immune system, is it possible for them to also naturally get rid of it?
Montagnier: [Nodding yes] I would think so.
Leung: That’s an important point.
Montagnier: It’s important knowledge which is completely neglected. People always think of drugs and vaccine. So this is a message which may be different from what you heard before, no?
Leung: The closing?
Montagnier: No, no, yes, my message, it’s different from what you heard from (Anthony) Fauci or…
Leung: Yes, it’s a little different.
Montagnier: Little different.
Analysis of the conversation:
As you can see from this transcript (and from watching the video), Leung asks no loaded questions and engages in no trickery whatsoever. If anything, Leung is quite reserved in his questioning, preferring to allow Montagnier to do most of the talking. In particular, Leung does not interrupt Montagnier, nor does he attempt to verbally entrap him in any way.
For his part, Dr. Montagnier doesn’t mince words. He’s very clear on the points he’s making, saying them several times in different ways. His points are, essentially (paraphrased):
• You can be exposed to AIDS without getting infected.
• A strong immune system can protect you against AIDS.
• With the help of good nutrition, you can fight off AIDS.
• The importance of AIDS vaccines is exaggerated.
• AIDS can be approached with low-cost, highly-effective alternatives to vaccines.
• What the African people really need is better nutrition to protect themselves from AIDS.
• The facts about nutrition and AIDS are being neglected (by the medical establishment).
He’s not wishy-washy about these things. He speaks with clear intent and does not waver on these points. At the end of the interview, before the cameras are turned off, he even acknowledges to Leung that what he just said was essentially a “bombshell” of information that stands at odds with conventional AIDS scientists such as Fauci.
Now, if ever watch the House of Numbers movie and watch the clips of Leung’s conversation with Montagnier, you’ll find that the quotes used in the film are right in line with what Montagnier is saying in his un-cut conversation. There is absolutely no distortion, no out-of-context quoting going on here. If anything, Leung has acted in a very professional way in choosing quotes for the final film that accurately reflect the essence of what Montagnier is communicating.
Luc Montagnier- Uncut interview:
And please tell me what specifically is “loony” about what Val Tuner says here:
“DO ANTIBODY TESTS PROVE HIV INFECTION?”
http://www.virusmyth.com/aids/hiv/hcinterviewvt.htm
“If HIV infection is so chronic, Frank, why the hell can’t they find any HIV?”
You’re a moron, Jeremy. HIV can be detected in everyone who is chronically infected.
“AID$ Fundamentalists will protect their racket by claiming Luc was taken out of context”
No, Jeremy, it was Montagnier himself who said he was “taken out of context”. The film was financed by your denialist friends in “Rethinking AIDS”. Christine Maggiore herself approved the funding before she died of AIDS herself.
His points are, essentially (paraphrased):
“Essentially?… paraphrased…?” Fuck off, Jeremy. Even I’m getting sick of your idiot trolling.
“Bob Leppo moved that RA board authorities authorize the RA foundation to make grants for a wider range of purposes, including films and video. Seconded by Charles Geschekter… Robert Giraldo moved that the RA foundation make grants for Brent Leung’s film based on available funds Seconded by Christine Maggiore. Unanimous agreement…”
– Minutes of Rethinking AIDS meeting, June 11th 2006. It’s on the net, Jeremy. So is the PF-900 form documenting the $25,000 grant they made to Brent Leung to make his dishonest film.
Didn’t save Christine, though. She still died from the AIDS defining condition PCP, as did her baby in 2005.
That’s the great thing about the internet, Jeremy. You can tell as many lies as you like, but you will be caught out.
Just as I totally expected, the distortions and abuse which are signs of true scientific thinking.
@Frank, comment 141
Bus driver: Correct. With a degree in IT, and spent 15 years working for several companies, mostly fortune 500, as a senior analyst/programmer, designing transaction processing systems. As most programmers will tell you, when you’re writing or amending transaction processing systems, you have to get a very tight grip on the brutal and unyielding rules of logic, because if you don’t, a small error becomes a very large error, very quickly. Programmers wouldn’t survive making the kind of logical errors that doctors regularly make. For your information, I made a tactical decision to change careers to focus attention on some extra-curricular activities such as some of my inventions, one of which now has a patent application No. GB 1009840.8, in case you doubt my words.
You subtly but importantly distorted the story about me going to Libya by saying I went to Libya TO offer myself as a consultant, as if I imposed myself on the defence lawyers. That’s not quite true. While I did make contact with them first, after I’d established a relationship with them over a period of several months and we’d exchanged various documents they asked me to go to Libya. That’s materially different.
You exposed the lie in your version by inferring I went to Libya first to offer myself as a consultant instead of being asked to go. If you’ve ever been to Libya you’ll know that you have to apply for a visa from INSIDE Libya, which means someone already there with credentials has to want you to go over. Not only that, they eventually arranged an airport visa (meaning it was issued at Tripoli airport) to get me over there in a hurry because it was going to take too long to do it through the London embassy. Again, I could send you a scanned image of that page in my passport in case you doubt my words.
Regarding vaccination, I believe a list of some of the vaccinations that are recognised in peer-reviewed medical literature to have caused false positive diagnoses has already been posted. To that you can add the Glaxo-SmithKline Pandemrix swine flu vaccine as a recent addition, according to Glaxo themselves – although in the interests of honesty, they only claim for ELISA tests and not WB, so theoretically just a risk in England and Wales but not in most other places. However, given the non-specificity of each band, there is no guarantee it wouldn’t tip someone over into positive diagnosis territory from ‘indeterminate’ if something else has triggered enough other bands to show up positive.
While I was in Libya the 50th of those children died – of AIDS ‘complications’, which is the usual medical speak for ‘drug toxicity’. Not surprising as many of them were being given AZT.
@Frank, comment 137
Actually, both antibody and antigen tests are antigen-antibody reactions. The fundamental problem is that antibodies are promiscuous, or ‘poly-specific’ as I believe they are being called now. If we go back to the very first vaccination, it was the use of cowpox – vaccinia – as a vaccination against smallpox – variola. In other words, it was absolutely dependent on the poly-specificity of antibodies. Poly-specific is non-specific because you can’t guarantee that it will react with only one thing, regardless of whether you do it in adults or children.
@The Colonel, 140
You’re right, I almost forgot – this is a site for porn professionals. So let’s focus on what would be of direct relevance to this site and this thread in particular, which is apparent sexual transmission of HIV diagnoses.
I presume you’re all familiar with the Padian study, that showed no even apparent sexual transmission between sero-discordant diagnosed partners in 282 couple-years of sex, despite all kinds of sex and intermitted condom usage? In other words, despite her recent claims, that study can’t be used to show that condom usage reduced sexual transmission if there was no transmission at all despite a lack of condom usage.
In 1993, Professor Robert Root-Bernstein said:
“The statistics are striking. In New York City, for example, 40 to 50 percent of streetwalkers (a very low caste of prostitute) who have used IV drugs over the past decade are HIV seropositive. (Whether these streetwalkers had other immunosuppressive risks such as non IV drug use, unprotected anal intercourse, multiple sexually transmitted diseases, and/or anemia and malnutrition that may have predisposed them to HIV and other infections has never been studied.) Among call girls in New York City (a higher caste of prostitute), no seropositivity was found among those who were drug free. These figures were constant between 1984 and 1989.
The same sorts of figures have been found in all Western nations. In Seville, Spain, 20 percent of intravenous drug users are HIV seropositive and 2.5 percent of the non-needle using prostitutes. Only 8 in 10,000 non-needle-using prostitutes are HIV seropositive in the Philippines. Studies of drug-free prostitutes in Amsterdam, London, Zurich, Paris. Vienna, Athens, Pardenone (Italy), Callao (Peru), Reno (Nevada), Tijuana (Mexico), and Central Tunisia over the last eight years have found only a handful of cases of HIV infection. Thus, American researchers M. J. Rosenberg and J. M. Weiner concluded in 1988 that “HIV infection in non-drug using prostitutes tends to be low or absent, implying that sexual activity alone does not place them at high risk, while prostitutes who use intravenous drugs are far more likely to be infected with HIV.” Similarly, British researchers concluded in the same year that “sexual activity alone has not been described as the principal risk [outside of Africa]….The most important risk factor for prostitutes in the West is sharing needles and syringes for drugs.” Every subsequent study has confirmed these conclusions.
It is important to note that the almost complete absence of HIV among non-drug using prostitutes is not due to safer sex practices. The same studies that found an absence of HIV documented low rates of condom use and very high rates of infection with classical sexually transmitted diseases. Twenty-five to fifty percent of the prostitutes were seropositive for syphilis; the same approximate percent were seropositive for hepatitis B virus (with about 5 percent actively infected); and antibodies against chlamydia, herpes simplex 1, herpes simplex II, and gonorrhea were present in 95 to 100 percent.
HIV, in short, is not behaving like a typical sexually transmitted disease. Sexual promiscuity, per se, does not put female prostitutes at risk for either HIV or AIDS. There is only one possible conclusion: vaginal intercourse and oral forms of sex (which are by far the most common forms practiced by the prostitutes interviewed in the studies summarized above) are not high risk activities for either the acquisition or transmission of HIV and AIDS. As Japanese physician Y. Shiokawa has suggested, it is probable that drug use, multiple concurrent diseases, malnutrition, and other immunosuppressive factors are required to increase susceptibility. Thus, healthy individuals do not contract HIV or AIDS, and even HIV seropositive, drug-abusing female prostitutes have not been and cannot be vectors for transmitting HIV or AIDS to a healthy, drug-free heterosexual population.”
Given that HIV positive diagnoses seem to be much more highly correlated with drugs than sex, it’s possible that the positive diagnoses of drug users – as ‘clean needle’ programs have unexpectedly found – is likely to be due to the immune system responding to biological or other matter injected into the veins that does not necessarily have anything to do with HIV. But the lack of apparent sexually-infectious transmission does mean that the porn industry need not be so worried.
Regarding receptive anal sex, where there does appear to be a correlation HIV diagnoses, it still does not behave like a sexually transmitted agent, but a sexually acquired condition similar to pregnancy – a subtle distinction. Tony Lance’s intestinal dysbiosis analysis of factors that can be highly correlated with anal sex may explain this, which again is not directly caused by anal sex per se, but by factors that may be associated with it in a large number of people, such as excessive douching.
Regarding injecting myself with blood from someone diagnosed HIV+, that’s not a particularly healthy thing to do anyway. Even the injection of your own blood, if it’s been irradiated, can make you turn HIV positive – which confirms that it’s just an immune system reaction to matter it now regards as foreign. However, if you’d kept reading the HEAL London website you’d have come across my testimony of myself and my then-boyfriend, who I continued having receptive anal sex with (ie, with him the top) after he’d been diagnosed because I didn’t believe it represented the automatic death sentence it was made out to be. So I’ve already walked my talk in a way that really matters.
Right. Testing HIV positive and developing AIDS isn’t caused by getting infected with HIV. It’s caused by too much anal douching, according to the bus driver.
Barking mad.
Did you tell the Libyans this was why their kids were dying, Mike?
@Frank. Those puerile responses illustrate why you’re not worth debating with.
Mike (Bus Driver) Hersee says:
‘Regarding injecting myself with blood from someone diagnosed HIV+, that’s not a particularly healthy thing to do anyway.’
Of course it’s not healthy, you moron, because you will get infected with the deadly HIV virus and die like the leper dog that you are. So you know this fact and are afraid of HIV, you’re only trolling and talking out of your ass and waste time and space. Like the majority of the members of your AIDS denialist cult including Germy Steal, you’re all dick and no balls. Thank you for proving my point. Now stop bragging about topics like medicine and science that are way above your pay grade and face your reality: You’re a dime a dozen bus driver, you have one of the shittiest jobs in the world. That means you’re a fucking loser and not good for anything else. That’s the horrible, painful reality of your existence. You can try to escape from this reality by writing stuff on your blog that nobody with half a brain and even less dignity will ever care to read and take seriously. But at the end of the day, you have to drive a bus just so you can pay your bills and go home and suck your boyfriend’s dick, if he’s in the mood and can get it up for you. ‘Nuff said.
“HIV can be detected in everyone who is chronically infected”.
No, Frank. The test is for antibodies or something other than HIV, presumed to be associated with HIV, itself. But there is no gold standard and no confirmatory test, which even you’ve admitted. When people are sick, there’s no debate they are sick (so we’re not confusing numb-nuts like Darrah). All tests are presumptive. All tests have false positives. UK won’t touch Western Blot. Different clinicians will say different bands or different numbers of bands means you’re HIV positive. You can get a positive diagnosis from the same results in one lab and a negative in another.
I provided both the unedited transcript of the interview and the video link (which Cindi still has not approved yet because she’s on vacation).
You try to proffer the claim that Luc was taken out of context because it was a biased hustle on the producer’s part. How in the world, in an unedited interview, where Montagnier talks on without interruption, could the producer(s) FORCE him to say THIS?:
“I think this is one way to approach, to decrease the rate of transmission, because I believe HIV we can be exposed to HIV many times without being chronically infected, our immune system will get rid of the virus within a few weeks, if you have a good immune system; and this is the problem also of the African people. Their nutrition is not very equilibrated, they are in oxidative stress, even if they are not infected with HIV; so their immune system doesn’t work well already…”
DID THEY PUT A GUN TO HIS HEAD, FRANK?????????
How could he be taken out of context?
You’re so obviously full of shit, Frank, to anyone with half a brain. And I hope your evil empire crumbles right on top of you!
The Colonel said:
“But at the end of the day, you have to drive a bus just so you can pay your bills and go home and suck your boyfriend’s dick, if he’s in the mood and can get it up for you.”
No he can’t, Colonel. When his boyfriend was diagnosed with HIV, Mike tells us in his “testimony” he asked us to read:
“It really only took me a few days to be clear that I had far more faith in my own ability to work out what was really going on than I had faith in medical science… Then, being sucked into the whole AIDS medical establishment, he came under intense pressure to start taking co-trimoxazole as a minimum, ‘to prevent pneumonia’ but preferably with some AIDS drugs too. I did some more research about them and persuaded him not to take those.”
The poor kid died of AIDS not long after. He was 23.
Creepy, but it gives you some insight into the minds of these denialist psychopaths.
Of course Frank will ignore my last point. Instead he and Colonel have teamed up to personally attack Mr. Hersee instead of addressing the studies/ statistics he’s provided.
Since Cindi is on vacation go to youtube dot com and type in “AIDS truth exposed: Un-cut exclusive footage from House of Numbers” to see the uncut video interview of Luc Montagnier.
Frank makes the most unbelievable, stupid, denialist claim I’ve heard him make so far.
How do the producer(s) of the documentary force Luc Montagnier to say “we can be exposed to HIV many times without being chronically infected, our immune system will get rid of the virus within a few weeks, if you have a good immune system.” He’s not quoting what someone else said.
Again, as I just said, DID THEY PUT A GUN TO HIS HEAD, FRANK????????? How could he be taken out of context? Watch the youtube complete interview tell me how that’s possible!
Regarding Luc Montagnier, I informed Henry Bauer of Frank’s idiotic “he was taken out of context” claim, despite the existing unedited video and transcript on the net, and he said: “Yes, Montagnier is a wild card and anathema to the orthodoxy. He’s going to China to study homeopathy because it’s not possible in the West….”
He also added in a previous email, that “Frank illustrates why I stopped arguing with anonymous bloggers. From fanatics who sent comments to my own blog in the early months I learned that they will focus on details and trivialities but refuse to address the central issues which are that HIV tests have never been shown to diagnose HIV infection and that there’s no proof at all that testing ‘HIV+’ represents any sort of health threat”.
You know Frank, the fact that Mike (Bus Driver) Hersee’s boyfriend died of HIV/AIDS is tragic, but unfortunately I can’t have sympathy for him. Anybody who is crazy/fool enough to take a bus driver’s words over the advice of the science and medical community deserves that fate.
Jeremy Steele AKA Germy Steal says to Frank:
‘I hope your evil empire crumbles right on top of you.’
HAHAHAHAHA
And then he continues with more Germy Steal-ness:
‘Frank and Colonel have teamed up to personally attack Mr. Hersee instead of addressing the studies/ statistics he’s provided.’
HAHAHAHAHA
There are only two possibilities:
A. Frank and I are not as crazy/stupid as you are, and we put our faith and trust in science instead of listening to blabbering of a gay bus driver who caused the death of his HIV positive boyfriend.
Or
B. Frank and I work for “the evil empire”, we’re part of an ongoing conspiracy against you, and our mission is to make you look like a fool and push you over the edge of sanity and send you straight to the mental asylum where you rightfully belong.
Thank you for the laughs, Germy Steal. I know I can always count on you to entertain me and make me laugh.
Are scientists with advanced degrees who dispute the orthodox HIV/AIDS dogma not part of any scientific or medical community, Colonel? And what about Montagnier himself who said “we can be exposed to HIV many times without being chronically infected, our immune system will get rid of the virus within a few weeks, if you have a good immune system.” No one had a gun pointing to his head when he said this and the entire interview is available on the net via the means I already mentioned.
IF AIDS was a specific disease instead of grouping of a bunch of old, unrelated diseases like dementia and diarrhea (one’s in your head and the other is in your ass), and if we had a gold standard test that actually found a virus and not non-specific antibodies then I’d be more privy to believe the hype you’ve fallen for via years of brainwashing.
As Valendar Turner has pointed out, antibodies, like porn stars (my addition) are PROMISCUOUS. Antibodies indulge in casual and indiscriminate relationships. Antibodies meant for one agent may react with another agent, a perfect stranger. “Or, if you want it put techically”, as Val explains, “there is ample evidence, some of the best in fact comes from the Pasteur Institute (JS-Montagnier’s lab), that antibody molecules, even the most pure, the mono-clonal antibodies, are not monospecific and cross-react with other, non-immunising antigens”.
That’s why the Eliza has about 70 known causes of false-positives.
Jeremy Steele AKA Germy Steal says:
‘Are scientists with advanced degrees who dispute the orthodox HIV/AIDS dogma not part of any scientific or medical community, Colonel?’
No, they’re not, they’re mentally disturbed outcasts like you; and stop twisting Luc Montagnier’s words to serve your pathetic agenda. There’s a fine line between what he in fact said and what you’re trying to make out of his comment, and our knowledgeable friend Frank has explained that difference.
I hope you catch HIV and in dealing with your disease, learn everything you need to know about it. There’s no other way to open your eyes and make you see how wrong you are. Shame on you.
Frank hasn’t explained anything, Colonel. Your blind faith and utter lack of curiosity to follow leads is uncharacteristic of your otherwise inquisitive mind when it comes to examing the details of other mega-scams foisted upon man. It’s impossible to intelligently explain how Montagnier’s words were taken out of context. Frank has offered no sensible explanation, as none exists. The cameras were running the entire time of the interview. Do you believe or claim he was put under the influence of some strange anti-truth drug or had a shotgun pointing at his head from off camera? You mindlessly trust Frank just as you’ve trusted other politically and economically biased authors/authorities.
The truth is out there. Pull head out of ass now!
More quotes from Nobel Prize winner, Dr. Luc Montagnier, Virologist, co-discoverer of HIV, Pasteur Institute, Paris – Interview with Djamel Tahi-1997 (I’m sure Frank will claim he never said these words or that they’ve been taken “out of context”):
“AIDS does not inevitably lead to death, especially if you suppress the co-factors that support the disease. It is very important to tell this to people who are infected…. I think we should put the same weight now on the co-factors as we have on HIV.”
“Psychological factors are critical in supporting immune function. If you suppress this psychological support by telling someone he’s condemned to die, your words alone will have condemned him.”
“We did not purify [isolate] … We saw some particles but they did not have the morphology [shape] typical of retroviruses … They were very different … What we did not have, as I have always recognized it, is that it was truly the cause of AIDS.”
As someone has noted, “Luc is stitched into HIV fabric against his wishes by being the ‘discoverer’ (his lab sample which was stolen and promoted by Gallo as the “cause of AIDS”). By fighting to claim ownership of the virus he inadvertently became associated with what the US claims were on that fateful day they decided to announce to the world that they had found the probable cause. I think by the time he discovered that they were absolutely wrong the chickens had flown the coup and there was no getting them back in. He has been trying to distance himself from the crazy HIV=AIDS claim and trying to tell anyone who is listening that death is so unlikely…”
In fact Jeremy, in regards to how Luc Montagnier’s words were taken out of context by AIDS denialist psychopaths, Frank’s explanation was sufficient enough for any rational, unbiased person who is not blinded by his middle aged loser angst and blind faith in a deadly internet cult, that obviously does not include you; and you’re right, the truth is out there. Now go stand in front of your bathroom mirror and repeat this line:
Pull head out of ass and stop being a lunatic trolling parrot.
Bullshit. Frank is lying and hiding, Colonel. Why don’t you try to explain how any of the above words were taken out of context. I’m sure you’ve not even watched the unedited rolling interview off youtube. Montagnier was doing most of the talking. The producer/host’s approach was entirely unlike right-wing coporate t.v. talk show hosts who dominate 90% of the conversation.
There is no explanation for this (unless he was quoting someone else’s claim or had a gun aimed at his head):
“we can be exposed to HIV many times without being chronically infected, our immune system will get rid of the virus within a few weeks, if you have a good immune system.”
And now to quote a parrot…. RAAWK ON!
Mr. Steele,
For the last time, never has the type of information you talk about ever been used to determine a single result of the tens of thousands of HIV tests that I have sold. Not one single time. I don’t know how to make that any easier for you to understand. Not one single time. I dont care what you read on the internet, or where you get your information from. It is a fact that not one single time has the type of information you talk about been used to determine a result. Nothing you say will change this fact.
My offer to let you see the process first hand still stands. Thank you.
Thanks Tim. Yours sounds like an honest lab. In spite of that, there have been guidelines set by other entities, in particular, higher up, in our medical establishment. We all need to keep an eye on each other at this point, but you (individually and as part of a collective) are not one I am really concerned about in any negative way. Thanks, again.
As is entirely predictable, The Colonel has mischaracterised a long, complex, detailed and nuanced account to select only facts that support his point of view. This is confirmed by the selectiveness and distortion of information already presented on this blog. For example, he says:
“Now stop bragging about topics like medicine and science that are way above your pay grade and face your reality: You’re a dime a dozen bus driver, you have one of the shittiest jobs in the world. That means you’re a fucking loser and not good for anything else. That’s the horrible, painful reality of your existence.”
His witty analysis is quite amusing, just that I’d like to point out that I don’t think the evidence supports his assertion. For example, what proportion of ‘dime a dozen’ bus drivers – in fact what proportion of the population, or even AIDS experts as a whole – are actually invited to another country by lawyers to assist in an HIV-related case? Do you really think they would have gone through the bureaucratic Libyan admin procedures of applying for a visa and arranging an airport visa for me in the middle of the internationally highest-profile legal case of 2006 if they hadn’t been pretty sure by then I was credible? Just think about that one for a moment. And by the way, when I was there I found out that Othman Al-Bezanti was regarded as one of the best lawyers in Libya, which was probably why he was asked to take the case.
What proportion of ‘dime a dozen’ bus drivers – in fact, what proportion of the population as a whole – gets round to applying for patents on engineering devices, just out of interest?
You can use those points to help you decide whether or not you think The Colonel’s summary of my testimony about my then-boyfriend is likely to be representative of what actually happened or not. Just as an example, I gave extensive evidence of intense and profoundly oppressive pyschological factors in his case that had strong correlations with his physiological state of well-being. And along the same lines that Luc Montagnier said quoted by Jeremy above, and has been documented extensively in literature, for some people simply believing they’re going to die soon can kill them. The Colonel omitted all the evidence I provided in support of that, presumably because it didn’t fit with what he believed, and neither did he mention the serious congenital heart defect my then-boyfriend had.
I think at this point, Mike, we’ve scared Joe and Frank away, and now the AIDS establishment has but the Colonel left to defend them by calling us crazy losers while repeating his brilliant solution that we shoot up with HIV+ blood as he sits back and watches with glee and downs another beer.
Btw, Mike Hersee, could you ellaborate on your knowledge regarding the connection between drug use amongst gays and GRID (gay related innume deficiency), as it was called before it became AIDS? What is your familiarity with the club drug scene connection with those gays dying? What happened to the studies on the subject?
Mike (Bus Driver) Hersee Says:
As is entirely predictable, The Colonel has mischaracterized a long, complex, detailed and nuanced account to select only facts that support his point of view.
What are you talking about? I only pointed out the facts.
FACT: You’re a gay man who drivers a bus for a living.
FACT: After your boyfriend was diagnosed with HIV, you refused to accept this tragedy. Denial is a psychological defense mechanism for some people when they’re struck with pain and trauma. Your denial motivated you to do research and choose whatever inaccurate, misrepresented and twisted misinformation that suits your agenda. Eventually you misled your boyfriend, convinced him to stop treatment and therefore caused his death.
FACT: Now the only way that you can deal with your loss and guilt, is to continue with your denialist agenda and inflict your pain on others. That’s why you travelled to Africa to convince African people to reject treatment and let their children die of HIV/AIDS, like you caused your boyfriend to die. Misery loves company; but the truth is that you did what you did, your boyfriend is dead because of you and you must come to terms with this truth and move on with your life. That wasn’t too complex, was it?
Stop the madness, go see a psychologist and seek treatment. It’s not too late.
Jeremy Steele says:
‘The AIDS establishment has but the Colonel left to defend them by calling us crazy losers while repeating his brilliant solution that we shoot up with HIV+ blood as he sits back and watches with glee and downs another beer.’
And despite your blabbering, you’re afraid of the deadly HIV virus, that’s why you can never take on my challenge and do the HIV positive experiment on yourself and back your claims with your action. All you do is regurgitating bullshit from fringe blogs and ranting out of your ass like a parrot and asking a gay bus driver to explain scientific facts for you. Some genius you are.
Cheers to you, Germy Steal.
I’m not afraid of HIV, Colonel. But I don’t want an HIV+ diagnosis. Plus I don’t like needles, and I’d definitely have to have my own needles and an independent analysis of the blood, etc, first. But, like I said, show me the money, all things are possible. Previously, I invested everything I had to give in a project that went to shit beyond what I was capable of imagining because the producer smoked too much crack when he was young and some other reasons. I no longer have any faith whatsoever in investing MY ASS(ets) in promising ideas.
So far, Mike Hersee has presented a lot of solid data that has nothing to with his day job. Of course if you can’t understand or care about that, you’re like that jive talking O.J. juror who said “I didn’t understand that DNA evidence so I threw it out!”
@ The Colonel: comment 181
You’re just repeatedly demonstrating a lack of an objective approach.
@Jeremy: comment 180
I should point out I was a bit young and at the time too desperately trying to be straight during the early 80’s to be in contact with the worst excesses of the ‘fast track’ gay lifestyle myself. However, I have read extensively about that time to get the best understanding of what was actually going on. To summarise my understanding of what was going on, for multiple sociological reasons that all converged at one point in time and in certain locations, a subset of gay men created a group identity that accompanied an unbelievably reckless and inherently unhealthy lifestyle, in a variety of ways unprecedented at any time in history. It became such that in some places being gay was virtually synonymous with drugs (including poppers), truly extreme sex, and multiple infections, where you really wouldn’t need a brand new virus to cause people to start dying of what people actually did start dying of. This view was expressed at the time by Emeritus Professor of Public Health Dr Gordon Stewart, who predicted a public health disaster. The problem was excacerbated by the medical profession – who were to be fair faced with an almost impossible task – often over-medicating with immunosuppressive corticosteroids and with cumulatively-toxic Septrin. But really, there were so many unhealthy practices going on that blaming any single factor is just not realistic. What became apparent though is that from an early stage there were strenuous efforts by medical authorities to direct attention away from ‘lifestyle’ factors in favour of an infectious theory that brought in big bucks. And for very much the same sociological reasons that caused the problem, various diverse groups were politically motivated to favour the single infectious entity explanation. Regrettably, that included gay men themselves. In my opinion, to get the most realistic overall picture of what was going on in the least reading by people who were there at the time, read John Lauritsen, Michael Ellner, and Tony Lance.
blah blah bla blahblahblahblahblahb blahbla blah blah blah blahb blahb blah blahb blah blah blah blah blahb blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blahb balblallallbha bhallhbahbhalhblaallbl blahb lbal blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
Typical of the aids denialists, someoneg gets bored after 600 comments and the denialst claim victory.
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blahb blbah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah
repeat repeat repeat repeat repaeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat
ignore ignore ignore ignore ignore ignore ignore ignore ignore
CINDI, PLEASE END THIS AMDNESS ONCE AND FOR ALL
Thanks Mike. Happy New Year. The real denialists are the ones who refuse to listen to those who have taken AIDS drugs and immediately got severely sick.
“A large number of HIV postive patients… have chosen not to take anti-retroviral drugs. They’ve watched their friends go on the anti-viral bandwagon and die”. – Dr. Donald Abrams, Professor of Medicine, University of California, San Francisco; Director of AIDS program, San Francisco General Hospital.
“Almost all reactions (on the HIV tests), especially in low risk populations, represent false-positive results.” – W. Vos Langedjik, AIDS researcher
http : // wn . com/rethinkingAIDS