The Thick Red Line
Op/Ed by the Colonel
One thing I love and at the same time hate about the adult industry is that there’s never a shortage of controversy, drama and war of worlds. People from all around the globe and all walks of life have a morbid curiosity, an obsession, if you may, with all things pornography: they want to know the most private details about performers, directors, producers, etc: what are their hubbies, where do they go for lunch, what was the name of the town they grew up in; and the list goes on. So in an atmosphere where people are this much obsessed with little, irrelevant details, of course when a true controversy occurs, everybody seems to have an opinion of some sort; and unfortunately most people don’t bother to exam and review all facts before expressing their opinions and starting a war of words to defend and justify those opinions.
Some true controversies in the recent months are indictments and convictions of notorious pornographers Max Hardcore and Rob Black based on obscenity charges. From day one, I made it clear that I do not defend, justify or support either of them in no way, form or manner, even though I’m in the same profession as they are. The fact that I make a living by producing and selling porn doesn’t mean that I have to support anybody who attempts to violate and dehumanize unsuspecting victims under the pretence of making movies and exercising his freedom of speech. There’s a fine line between making sexually explicit movies with consenting adults and exploiting naive girls and putting them in situations where they don’t know how to get out of; the line that Max Hardcore and Rob Black knowingly and willingly have crossed time and again, and to make matters worse, they constantly defied and humiliated the authorities. To them, it was a game of name seeking and publicity, a tactic to sell a few more copies of their movies. So when the consequences of their actions come back to haunt them, they should have been ready to face them.
Some people are under the impression that anything and everything must be allowed to expressed, practiced and protected under the First Amendment. I beg to differ. I believe a line must be drawn to distinguish between the acts which are harmful and inflict actual, physical and/or psychological pain on others and the acts that are not harmful and don’t inflict any actual pain. The line must be drawn to clarify and determine boundaries of the freedom of expression. Freedom is not free, nor that should it be allowed to be expressed through harming unsuspecting victims under the pretence of making movies. Moreover, any alert and conscious person with the slightest of dignity can and will draw that line and chooses to take advantage of the freedom of expression instead of abusing it.
If Max Hardcore and Rob Black are to be allowed to produce torture scenes under the pretence of making pornographic movies, then a serial killer must also be allowed to kill and dismember people under the pretence of making horror movies. I don’t blame the civilians who express and discuss their opinions on this topic, some of them are intelligent, well educated people and for that I respect them. But despite their interest in the adult industry, they’re not aware of some dark, disturbing facts of this industry. Obviously they never had the experience of interacting with the performers, videographers, etc. who have worked with Max Hardcore and Rob Black and saw them for what they truly are and not the victims of government’s cruelty as they like to portray themselves.
I’m a part of the adult industry, I make a living by making pornographic movies, material that some people like, some people don’t. But the thick, red line that I’ve never crossed and will never cross is inflicting pain on naive girls who took the Grey Hound bus to Los Angeles to seek a career in the adult industry. The fact that a girl in a Max Hardcore or Rob Black movie signed a 2257 Form and endured a session of brutality, pain and dehumanization just so she can pay her rent or support her child doesn’t make her a consenting adult, it makes her an unfortunate victim of unpredictable circumstances; something they will tell you as they choke on words and shiver with disgust while talking about those cruel, despicable and vile experiences. I’ve seen pain in their eyes, pain that nobody should endure and nobody should be allowed to inflict under any excuse or pretence.
I support the true freedom of expression, that’s why I have always supported Larry Flynt, I supported Adam Glasser and I continue to support John Stagliano; these are the people who deserve to represent the adult industry, not twisted evil doers who do nothing but harm to this industry’s image and reputation. It’s all about drawing the line, the thick, red line.
My friend in the XXX industry says the reason that porn producers allow such violent scenes in the 1st place, is because by getting normal guys to treat women like shit, these same men will get less dates and have to buy more porn. Is that true? And do you think that, that type of thinking is a double edge knife… Do you believe that, that type of thinking is truth or a XXX myth? Thanks…
Of course producers like Max Hardcore and Rob Black rely on the shock/disgust value to sell their movies and there are some people who purchase their movies. But having a consumer base doesn’t justify the actions of those producers. If you look at the issue from that perspective, then everything that some people are willing to pay for must be allowed to produce including child porn, beastiality and snuff; and we all know it’s niether right nor tolerable.
I find the videos of Max Hardcore or Rob Black other similar types very troubling. In a broader definition of consent as you mention, these women are not willing participants. I wonder though why authorities don’t go after them with charges of rape and unlawful confinement instead of obscenity. Successful prosecution on those types of charges would mean effectively a life sentence for the defendants. Has a woman in a Hardcore or Black movie never gone to the police and claimed rape?
I think you have it personal in for max and black..
first you state they are only in the industry so they can “live out their own perversions” but next you say they do these things to get more pr and by doing so increase dvd sales, to me that sounds like they are interested in selling dvd’s just like any other producer.
who are you to say some dont like a little pain with their sex? plenty of porngirls love being dominated, they get off on it.. look at some of the sasha grey content out there.. and who are you to say what is the limit of pain allowed? some girls do spanking scenes and come home with bruises, they dont care..
and why should you decide the threshold which a model is allowed to endure? look at kink.com surely some them girls are introduced to pain and sex simultaneously.
boxers are allowed to get knocked out, some dies. all for the entertainment of others.. why is this different?
i like watching boxing, but have never watched a max hardcore film or clip, but just because i dont like it, doesnt mean others should not be able to view it if they find it entertaining.. sick? perhaps but we all have some perversions right???
Sirecumalot Says:
‘I think you have it personal in for Max Hardcore and Rob Black.’
No sire, you’re wrong. Read the article one more time, maybe this time you get it, maybe you don’t.
There’s a fine line between practicing S & M, boxing and fucking up naive, unsuspecting victims; and if you don’t understand the difference, then you don’t understand.
If Max Hardcore and Rob Black can be allowed and supported to make movies, then pedophiles and murderers must be allowed and supported to make child porn and snuff movies as well.
How can you tell if a porn girl is really being harmed just from watching a scene? If the aim is to stop abuse in porn production then I don’t think you can do it based on how extreme the porn looks to the viewer.
I’ve heard about girls being exploited and having bad experiences while shooting softcore, yet others have no complaints about shooting painful looking scenes for Kink.
How does some outside body draw the line between genuinely harmful and harmless if they just have the finished porn product to go on?
Kendall-
I know girls who have shot for Kink and they do come back with injuries, but feel since they were paid well, it’s ok. I do not agree.
I did a scene many years ago, a b.J. it was rough but he wasn’t an a-hole about it. When a performer tried to put his hands around my neck, I’d just tell him to stop, if it was rough or painful, I’d just ask him to ease up. Producers and director’s don’t want the talent rough-housed, because if a women gets hurt, then she either can’t finish a scene or won’t be able to work.
A female performer needs to take responsibility for what scenes she’ll do and how male talent treats her. Somtimes if the scene is too hardcore a female performer needs to walk away from it and not do it. Like I would never do bukokies or large gang bangs. Why? Because it wouldn’t turn me on and the money wouldn’t compensate me for the damage done to my well being.
Nina Hartly told me years ago said to me: don’t get into porn just for money, if your only doing it for the money, that’s the wrong reason to make porn, make porn because you like sex. She’s right. Max is a nice guy, so it’s really hard for me to think that he could have done what he did. And the only reason that I can come up with is sales and money. It wouldn’t make sense any other way.
But the Colnals right beastiality and kitty porn is illegal. I also knew of a director who rough housed the girls, because he said it was funny watching them go in so happy and that they had no idea what was in store for them.
But if you have a good agent stuff like that shouldn’t happen because a good agent would know who those directors are.
Kendall Says:
‘How can you tell if a porn girl is really being harmed just from watching a scene?’
If you can’t realize what’s going on in a Max Hardcore or Rob Black scene, you’re either ignorant or you choose to look away and not see. Furthermore, I’m no ‘outside body’; I know many of those girls, they have worked for me, I have talked to them and they have told me how they walked into a Max Hardcore or Rob Black scene, thinking it’s just another boy/girl/anal scene, but ended up broken, devastated and harmed.
S & M material such as what Kink.com produces is different, because girls who go to shoot a role playing/bondage scene for Kink.com know the particulars of what they have to do, they know getting tied up, getting whipped and crawling into a cage is part of the scenario. So at the end of the day if they go home with some bruises they won’t be shocked and surprised; while on the other hand girls who went to shoot a boy/girl/anal scene with Max Hardcore, ended up getting slapped, vomitting on his cock and drinking his piss. If you don’t realize what’s wrong about this, then there’s something wrong with you.
Black and Max are in the joint for OBSCENITY, not for assaulting anyone. What part of that do you not get? Yeah, yeah , you film young naive girls getting loads in their faces onscreen, but you’re so much better than these guys, right? Filming adults fucking is not illegal. But with assholes like you around it will be one day…
“.
S & M material such as what Kink.com produces is different, because girls who go to shoot a role playing/bondage scene for Kink.com know the particulars of what they have to do, they know getting tied up, getting whipped and crawling into a cage is part of the scenario. So at the end of the day if they go home with some bruises they won’t be shocked and surprised; while on the other hand girls who went to shoot a boy/girl/anal scene with Max Hardcore, ended up getting slapped, vomitting on his cock and drinking his piss. ”
Ugghhhhhh here we go again. Do you honestly think that these whores didn’t know the deal before they got to Max’s place? Max didn’t cover his bases by telling them first? Their agents forgot to tell them? They didn’t spend 10 seconds on the internet looking at his shit? You’re such an idiot. Say hi to Shelley for me at the next meeting…
Thank you for weighing in with a piece, Colonel. But I disagree in the broader context in terms of what an “adult” is defined as in society beyond porn. At 18, like it or not, you have to have your shit together. These women are not victims, they are just stupid. The world should not be child-proofed with laws to save the stupid either from “predators” like Max or from their own stupidity. The sharks are always going to devour a portion of the chum. But the solution is not to make the shark extinct. What Max and Rob have done is not all that new either, just products of their time. Look at some of Jamie Gillis’ older “greatest hits.” Ideally the only line drawn should be at consent. And since you mentioned snuff, even though it is impossible for various aspects, if a performer wants with all their heart to be offed in a movie, what gives any of us the right to stop them? Freedom is not free, that’s true Colonel. But it doesn’t make it any less hypocritical or contradictory to espouse freedom only to draw lines for other people.
Sophia, you’re right, the female has the option to walk away from a scene and some of them did walk away from Max Hardcore and Rob Black scenes. But the majority of those girls were naive, fresh off the bus and unexperienced. They walked into those scenes without knowing what they were getting themselves into, and by the time they were under the pressure, they were terrified to stop or leave. They were afraid if they walk away that will tarnish their reputation as performers and they can’t get hired by anybody else.
As for the agents, most of them don’t care about the girls and who they send them to, they just want to get their pimp money. That’s why I insist girls who want to get into the adult industry must do a research and be aware of the predators, hazards and pitfalls of this industry.
Max Softcore, say hi to Max Hardcore next time you send him charity gifts and flowers, and while you’re at it little piggie, go fuck yourself.
And Mr. President, in theory you’re right. In a perfect world, people educate themselves and make their decisions based on knowledge and self awareness. But in an imperfect, indecent world such as ours, the lines must be drawn to protect ‘stupid people’ from ‘the predators’. You can argue about that, but I believe in your heart of hearts you know this is the right thing to do.
col, list 3 girls who have worked for max and you have shot and who told you this..
i have seen this argument before but i have yet to see anyone come up with more than one model.
—–And Mr. President…in an imperfect, indecent world such as ours, the lines must be drawn to protect ’stupid people’ from ‘the predators’. You can argue about that, but I believe in your heart of hearts you know this is the right thing to do.
We’re going to have to agree to disagree about this one. And my belief about this goes well beyond porn. I don’t want to live in a perpetual coddled youth nation. There are far too many people who don’t accept responsibility for their own actions. There are also too many people who feel we need to be protected from ourselves, such as the prosecutor in the Rob Black case. You are only encouraging this, Colonel, despite your best intentions. You have to keep advancing on the battlefield or at least hold the line. If you let them push your side back, everyone loses eventually. And whether you like it or not, you and Max and Rob are on the same side;)
Let me start by applauding your positon on Max Hardcore’s “Art” and his manner of conducting business.
As a “Max fan”, I have had to do some soul searching the last couple of years.
I initially enjoyed the exteme! Was eve stimulated at one time. However the more i watched the more I was horrified, disgusted, and thought WTF is this guys deal with kids!
I have suffered through a bunch of Maxs’ shit over the years. The fact he delt with young women was unsettling to start with, but yet,
I was there! Guilty as charged!
I was watching this shit! WTF is wrong with me!
I started wathching Max years ago when he was simply on the “extreme edge” of porn. First consensual extremeism in porn!
Unkowingly, I was just as ignorant as a fan as his perfomers. After a while I started to see how it became a control, power, “innocence lost’ drama that was very hard to watch.
I applaud the survival of the fittest manifesto but not at the humuliation of the victim.
Hey he gave the world Gape and ATM! Thank you doesn’t seem appropriate.
I stopped watching Max when he started the really heavy shit, forced anal, unsuspecting golden showers, malicious gagging etc… if you’ve scene it you know.
So my issue is that if the right to free speech is the most sacred of all our rights, what are we as good citizens to do with men like Max use the right to the extreme?
So he takes advantage of ignorance! who doesn’t?
Isn’t that capitalism is all about.
Buyer,seller beware right?
Sire, I’m not going to name any names, because I don’t want to involve any girls in this argument. They had their fair share of damage and pain. If you’re an adult industry insider, you should already know at least some of them. If you’re a curious civilian, then you can do some research and find the names on your own.
And President my friend, you know of my best intentions, and that’s good enough for me, we can agree to disagree about this one. But as for keep advancing and holding the line, I’m doing that by defending and supporting the likes of Larry Flynt and John Stagliano who deserve to be defended and supported. I’m not on the same side with Max Hardcore and Rob Black just like The Colonel Stauffenberg and Joseph Goebbels were not on the same side despite the color of their uniforms.
Yeah, I know you have insider knowledge about the goings on during shoots, but it wouldn’t be you, or anyone else in the industry, enforcing restrictions on porn.
If you want a line to be drawn in what’s legally allowed then it’ll be outside bodies, the people prosecuting porn companies, who’ll be responsible for drawing it.
My point is that rough/extreme looking content isn’t necessarily abusive to the performer, even if that’s the case with Max Hardcore’s crap. We may be able to see a difference between Rob Black’s porn and BDSM stuff produced by Kink, but would a total porn outsider be able to determine which is harmful to the performer, and which isn’t, just by watching a scene?
Kendall, the next time I go to my local deli store, I’ll take my laptop with me and show some of Kink’s scenes to the old fatso and ask her opinion while she’s making my turkey sandwich. She’s a total porn outsider who probably hasn’t even got laid since the Carter administration. Furthermore, she was a jury member on a murder case and she should have some answers for your question.
For those who blame the government for prosecuting slime bags like Max and Rob Black – The Government only stepped in because nobody else stood in and did the right thing to stop them. This speaks VOLUMES about an industry that can’t/won’t protect it’s own interest.
Actually, this is a metaphor for America in the 21st Century. Think about it, instead of protecting it’s own interests, the U.S. is destroying itself by stealing or giving it away. CEO’s and their board allow their own Financial Institutions, Car Companies (or any other myriad of corporations) to be DESTROYED while they just shrug their shoulders and walk out the back door.
All these destroyed institutions (by it’s own leadership for a few measly dollars) are now under the guardianship of the U.S. Government who’s just trying to keep the country afloat. Sad, because the Government can’t save a country and people that were unwilling and uncaring to take care of itself.
See, that’s why Larry Flynt wrote that satiric plea for the Government to bail out the porn industry (and STILL a enormous of stupid people BELIEVED IT!). It was just satire people. Satire about a destroyed country and it’s destroyed institutions in a SUPPOSED DEMOCRACY.
I worked with Max when I was 27, yes Colnol it was rough, I can honestly say that I didn’t like blow jobs after that, he was really, really, rough but he wasn’t mean afterwards and I could have stoped him.
Tony Tedeshi said years ago when it happened that I was luky, that he had done much worse to others. But a lot of male talent is rough, and a lot of porn chicks like it rough. I also had sex with Jack Venise he was a very angry lover and was a lot rougher sexually then Max. But he wasn’t mean after sex either. Maybe it’s porn that makes Directors and performers act like that.
But like my good friend who’s a performer say’s, porn changes you, it makes you seek out freakier and freakier shit, too get turned on. Max got 10, Jack got life! Are those sentences fare, when people who have comited genocide only get life, knowing dam well that the Nazi’s all hung for the same atrocitys.
I worked for and knew Max, I also had sex with and worked with Jack at a club. I knew Jack had problems, he really wasn’t very smart, and he had anger issues durring sex.
But did either of these men really diserve their sentences?
When baby killers and murder’s received the same sentences or less.
People do need to take responsibility for their actions. But so does the XXX industry. Porn will probably ruin most peoples life just because of all the stigma associated with it. Many performers have died from AIDS, drug over dosses and suicide. The world is ugly enough to porn stars, so I’m with the Colnal, no performer in porn, should also have to tolerate abuse as well. Sex is sapposed to feel good, not hurt.
Wow Lostbutterfly, you write like shit.
NL- Sophia, You can post anywhere about anything EXCEPT-Please keep your & Jeremy’s fighting on the other thread. TY
WOW pornster gues what? I don’t care what you think…
Colonel is right about brand new girls being sent to Max. I have met two girls who did their first scenes with him. The weird part is that they entered the biz over a decade apart. For one, there was no internet access to Google and find out about Max Hardcore. If either had known what he was, they would have not gone.
Max seemed to enjoy hurting his partners. The prosecution brought in one of the females who was in one of his films (she had long made claims that she was raped in the making of the video and other assorted statements) and she testified and sat in the courtroom each day. That sunk his ship this time more than any other factors.
I have seen nasty bruises on talent that has worked for Kink.com, but they didn’t mind like one person mentioned because they were paid so well.
This is my first post here and I must admit I still don’t know where I stand on the issue. Both sides make convincing arguments. I guess it boils down to just how ‘consenting’ were the performers in the Max Hardcore vids. I don’t like lines being drawn when it comes to obscenity and by going after and successfully convicting Max could mean open season on other, less deserving adult film-makers. I haven’t seen any of Hardcore’s stuff because it repulses me but if the girls were willing and an audience is willing to pay for it, does he deserve to go to jail for it? On the other hand, if what the Colonel says is accurate then it’s borderline rape and should not be protected under the First Amendment.
Like I said, it’s a tough issue to debate no matter which side of the fence you sit on. What’s even more worrisome to me is the huge market for this kind of stuff.
The respondents here need to keep in mind the distinction between “obscenity,” the charge applied to these particular cases, and the separate issues of consent and other potentially actionable charges involving the performers working for the producers. All of these cases have been tried under current obscenity laws, and for no other reason. They have been between the various states and the producers alone, and have not involved specific allegations or charges brought by any performer; that would be a separate civil action. Obscenity, as it is defined today, is based on “accepted community standards,” and therefore varies from state to state. In the instance of material presented via the Internet, the current debate revolves around whose community standards can be applied to material that is universally disseminated.
All of these cases have very disturbing implications in terms of censorship, and to applaud the jailing of any individual under the draconian authority of Obscenity, is to lend validation to those who would suppress the constitutional right to free expression for all of us. I’m guilty of this very thing, and I have to remind myself that no matter how much I take offense to the vile work of Max Hardcore or Rob Black, I must remain in support of their right to produce it. To begin delineating what particular activities are and aren’t acceptable to our individual tastes, and asking the law to define such, sends us tripping down a slippery slope with no solid legal foothold, and this is very dangerous.
Colonel, to suggest that the material produced by Max, et al is akin to child pornography or a snuff film doesn’t merit any intellectual comparison. Seriously, can you place non-consensual child abuse and murder side by side with consensual adult pornography? The laws governing the former are very clear, while the latter is not. To the point of whether the female performers in such consensual productions are ultimately harmed physically or psychologically, that is a distinctly separate debate and also a separate potential civil matter that should not be confused with the central issue of obscenity and how it applies to each individual case.
I think that the framers of the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights never conceived that these future debates would occur, or that humans would sink to the depths of morality that we see today, but they clearly perceived the need to preserve the rights of even the lowest among us.
This is not a discussion about the definition of obscenity. As we all know, obscenity varies from community to community, person to person, etc. To a middle class couple living in small town Arkansas, an ATM or DP scene can be obscene, while to hardcore party monsters of Amsterdam night clubs, a bestiality or snuff scene can be considered obscene. So let’s not get into the technicalities.
Max Hardcore and Rob Black were running amok, taking bad advantage of their position as pornographers by abusing, exploiting and hurting young, naive, unsuspecting girls to satisfy their sadistic urges and benefit financially. Moreover, they believed they can do this forever by hiding behind the freedom of expression and the First Amendment rights. The adult industry must have taken proper action and put an end to their destructive endeavours. But it didn’t happen. At that point, the government interfered and got them on obscenity charges.
The question is: do I believe those obscenity charges were legitimate? No, both were slam dunk cases and even the convictions were not severe enough in compare to committed crimes. The government decided to act like the adult industry’s scavenger and take out the trash for us since we didn’t do it when we had to. They build their cases based on the broader definition of obscenity, while as my friend Art Williams suggested in an early comment on this thread, they could have and should have build their cases on the broader definition of consent instead and charge Max Hardcore and Rob Black with rape allegations and put them in prison for life.
A small reminder before I get to the next point: this is not the first time the authorities convict run away criminals with slam dunk cases. They got the mobster boss Al Capone based on tax evasion charges and the murderer O.J.Simpson based on the petty theft charges. What mattered in the end was that they both were put away where they belonged. Under certain circumstances, the end justifies the means.
That brings me to my next point: I’m not suggesting the government intervention and/or supervision in the adult industry. What I’m suggesting is that everybody in this industry from producers to directors, performers, etc. must be self aware, careful and vigilante, they must take advantage of their freedom of expression and the First Amendment rights instead of abusing those rights and openning the door to government interventions and embarrassing slam dunk cases. We must take out our trash before the Uncle Sam does that for us and has more excuse to shove his fist further down our throats. An entire industry cannot and should not pay for the misdeeds of a very few twisted evil doers.
—-For one, there was no internet access to Google and find out about Max Hardcore. If either had known what he was, they would have not gone.
LOL! Seriously, tell me why anybody is supposed to care about such hick idiots.
—-Max seemed to enjoy hurting his partners. The prosecution brought in one of the females who was in one of his films (she had long made claims that she was raped in the making of the video and other assorted statements) and she testified and sat in the courtroom each day. That sunk his ship this time more than any other factors.
I believe you are mistaken about this woman actually testifying. If she never brought an official claim against him nor was he tried for rape, how could they have used such testimony?
—-No, both were slam dunk cases and even the convictions were not severe enough in compare to committed crimes. The government decided to act like the adult industry’s scavenger and take out the trash for us since we didn’t do it when we had to. They build their cases based on the broader definition of obscenity, while as my friend Art Williams suggested in an early comment on this thread, they could have and should have build their cases on the broader definition of consent instead and charge Max Hardcore and Rob Black with rape allegations and put them in prison for life.
Jesus Christ! I find this to be scarier than anything else. You are out there, Colonel.
Does anybody else want their tax dollars going towards housing Max Hardcore and Rob Black for life in an overcrowded prison system for working with girls too naive for their own good?
We’re both out there, Mr. President, we’re just not on the same side; at least not on this issue.
The President says:
‘Does anybody else want their tax dollars going towards housing Max Hardcore and Rob Black for life in an overcrowded prison system for working with girls too naive for their own good?’
No, Mr. Ahmadinejad, we can exile them to your democratic country so you treat them as your guests of honor.
Wow! So the real ? should be: “did Max Hardcore diserve his conviction or was he railroaded into an excessive prison sentence?”
And the secound question is: “does obsenity have anything to do with the way performers allow Derectors and Talent to treat them?”
Another question is: “if a XXX employer allows the talent to be raped on a set, could that said talent sue that XXX employer?”
Why are there no labor laws regarding the treatment of people in the sex industry?” And why has no one in the XXX industry organized a Union for the talent? Hollywood has Unions for there talent: if there had been a Union, I doubt this type of treatment could ever have happened.
The topic of having a union for the adult industry workers was brought up on this board in the past. I’ll write an article and discuss this issue and it’s pros and cons. It’s a vast topic and I can’t compress my thoughts about it in a comment, so stay tuned.
I really believe all sex-jobs need Unions. I know a guy who is a strip club manager, who worked 24/7 for a greedy strip-club owner who cared more about redecorating then paying him, who did pay him a month latter and the guy broke down in tears. I know D.J’s who work 16 hour shifts and are threatened with termination if they don’t comply, I know stripers who work 4 doubles in a row, with no hourly and leave after 16 hrs, with only $120 dollars. Who don’t get to see kids and loved ones.
I was fired from that same strip club, because I wouldn’t work 1 extra day, when I had agreed to work 4. It’s slavery and who’s protecting the performers? With greedy club owners demanding half and sick perverted customers demanding us ro let them finger fuck us in the back room for the low low price of $40 dollars. Where’s the justice?
Or does America’s constitution only apply to what society has deemed: “moral people.” I thought slavery ended with the emancipation proclamation act or was that b.s. too?
I see greedy rich people in the sex industry allowing all of these extra’s to go on. But these people forgot to really pay us. I know how much fem dom and kink.com pay people. In my opinion as long as they REALLY pay them then it’s OK, but they don’t, unless you think less then $4000 dollars is enough to risk renal damage from being pounded by a strap-on. I’m all for American biz owners as long as the people who work for them really get paid and don’t get abused, so they make all the money while we don’t. That’s not cool!
“Ugghhhhhh here we go again. Do you honestly think that these whores didn’t know the deal before they got to Max’s place?”
Many did not.
“Max didn’t cover his bases by telling them first?”
Sometimes he did, sometimes he did not.
“Their agents forgot to tell them?”
Many agents set the girl on purpose.
“They didn’t spend 10 seconds on the internet looking at his shit?”
They are porn chicks in many case they do not who are they going to work until the phone rings.
“You’re such an idiot. Say hi to Shelley for me at the next meeting…”
Guess Im a idiot too but that is why girls that have worked with Max have told me. If they did know in advance they would never have went to the shoot.
I just think abuse sucks unless your a SLAVE and into BDSM… and isen’t every one who films or participates in porn WHORES? Aren’t we all whores to some degree or another? Just sayin.
Colonel, allow me to address your points:
“So let’s not get into the technicalities.”
-The law is specifically about technicalities, and the laws defining obscenity are what apply to the Max Hardcore and Black/Borden cases in their entirety. Obscenity is the sole charge, and it’s applied definition is the sole criteria. This is an inarguable point, so I’m missing yours here. “Bestiality” is illegal in many states, period; “snuff”, as in actual murder, is illegal in every country throughout the world, and would be prosecuted as such. Again, you’re making sweeping comparisons that don’t apply to these particular legal cases. You’re saying, if you allow a particular degree of “unacceptable” activity, then you have to accept even more objectionable or outright illegal activity? I still don’t understand your rationale here.
Further, your point that these producers were “exploiting” performers so that they could “benefit financially” is not a crime in any jurisdiction. It doesn’t matter how abusive the producers were in this process, as long as the performers, as independent contractors, were working willingly and not illegally coerced or misled. Signed releases and verification of age requirement would establish their willingness and legal agreement to participate. Again, no civil charges have been filed by any performer involved in these cases, and let’s be very clear on this fact.
“The adult industry must have taken proper action and put an end to their destructive endeavours.”
-What action can the adult industry take? Peer pressure? Public outcry? Kneecapping? The industry has no governing body or authority to stop anybody from doing anything. Specifically what are you proposing with this statement?
“They build their cases based on the broader definition of obscenity, while as my friend Art Williams suggested in an early comment on this thread, they could have and should have build their cases on the broader definition of consent instead and charge Max Hardcore and Rob Black with rape allegations and put them in prison for life.”
-The definition of obscenity, regardless of it being broad nor narrow, is still based on “accepted community standards,” and we have to live with that definition until another one becomes law. What prosecutors “should have” done is irrelevant; besides, no performer has come forward with “allegations” or has filed charges of rape, assault, unlawful confinement, or any other charge that would have taken these cases in another direction entirely. Again, you’re confusing the main point: What are the acceptable community standards that define obscenity in the particular jurisdictions in which these cases were tried? If the prosecutors could have brought other charges as you suggest, for actionable offenses such as tax fraud, racketeering, health violations, or any number of possible lesser offenses, then I’m sure they would have, but the fact remains that they went for obscenity. And such a charge is never a “slam dunk,” due to its inherent vagueness, and proven by the fact that these cases have dragged on for quite some time.
I fully understand the core issue of your opinion piece, Colonel. That issue is that First Amendment rights must have more clearly defined parameters in relation to obscenity and its outer fringes, with some means to enforce those parameters within our industry. However, there is no currently accepted or legally enforceable way to do that.
I suggest that you and others within our industry initiate a dialog, based on rational facts and legal precedent, not emotion, whereby we can begin to address the negative impacts of those who produce legally questionable material which puts us all at risk. I agree wholeheartedly that freedom of expression comes with great responsibility, to ensure that no other individual is harmed in the exercise of that right. If we don’t create a solution ourselves, then rest assured that the government will intervene in a way that none of us wants to abide.
With all said and done, Third Axis, the fact remains that the government interfered, build the obscenity cases against Max Hardcore and Rob Black and put them away because the adult industry didn’t do what they had to do: produceers should have spread the word as I personally did but many others didn’t, the distributers should have refused to sell their products which they didn’t, the agents should have refused to send new comers to them which they didn’t, and the list goes on. Somebody, something must have put an end to their endeavours and it turned out to be the government.
Again, I won’t get into the technicalities of definition of obscenity and how it varies from place to place, that’s a meaningless, pointless argument, because these cases were, let me say this again, slam dunk cases. They had under cover federal agents mail ordering Hardcore and Black movies from obscure communities, what else needs to be explained in order to prove the cases were slam dunk and the government was only interested to put these people away. Could they bring other charges? Of course they could. Why did they bring out the obscenity charges then? Because they wanted to guarantee an easy guilty verdict, and due to the broad definition of obscenity, that seemed like a proper choice. As long as Hardcore and Black are bankrupt and locked up, I could care less about the technicalities of the charges against them. The end justified the means.
As for your suggestion to initiate a dialog in order to prevent risky behaviors of a few that can damage the whole adult industry, we’re doing that right now. That’s why I wrote this article and that’s why I’m writing this response right now. Be well and god bless you.
My 2 cents.
A penniless, naive, 18 year old woman who is hooked on meth and sent to do a Hardcore / Black scene cannot consent. She will do ANYTHING for a pay cheque. Ask any meth addict.
Look at some of the Max trailers and you often, not always, see women who are experiencing distress as they appear in these movies. Distress indicates a lack of consent. Interesting that I never get that feeling when I watch Kink stuff especially with the exit interviews they include. It is hardcore BDSM but not hateful but more importantly Kink features women who want to be there.
Government has a duty and a responsibility to protect the most vulnerable. I used to think, “yeah, she is 18 and signed a contract so anything goes” but it is obvious that some of these women should not be in the industry. Every other industry in America is regulated or self-regulated. If members of the porn industry don’t have some standards then expect these standards to be set by your politicians.
Though I think that obscenity charges against Hardcore / Black were the easy way out, I am not sorry to see them go. I will be accused of starting a slippery slope but I ask you then what is your bottom line? Is it, she’s 18, signed a contract so we can video tape her doing absolutely anything?
“A penniless, naive, 18 year old woman who is hooked on meth and sent to do a Hardcore / Black scene cannot consent. She will do ANYTHING for a pay cheque. Ask any meth addict.”
While I do agree with you, that can happen also to any other pornographers, should AIM start to do drugt tests?
I have seen some of Teagans ealy scenes and they are disturbing for example (and the most disturbing thing is that Teagan´s fans seem to look at those scenes as her best ones) she looks frightened and in obvius distress. And is was plain normal gonzo porn. Shall pornongraphers given her the door instead?
How may porn girls got into porn just for the drugs and were raping themselves in porn for the drugs.
There must be tons of them.
“While I do agree with you, that can happen also to any other pornographers, should AIM start to do drugt tests?
I have seen some of Teagans ealy scenes and they are disturbing for example (and the most disturbing thing is that Teagan´s fans seem to look at those scenes as her best ones) she looks frightened and in obvius distress. And is was plain normal gonzo porn. Shall pornongraphers given her the door instead?
How may porn girls got into porn just for the drugs and were raping themselves in porn for the drugs.
There must be tons of them.”
Issues like consent are rarely black and white. That is why they are hard for society to deal with. Sometimes we make arbitrary rules like “age of consent” laws. We also protect mentally challenged people from themselves and being exploited by others.
In Canada where I am from, a bartender cannot serve alcohol to an obviously intoxicated person. Perhaps pornographers should not be allowed to tape people under the influence of drugs. We wouldn’t want someone to tape a mentally retarded woman having sex but, on the other hand, it wouldn’t be reasonable to give all porn participants an IQ test.
I don’t know. It is a hard line to draw. I remember reading an article on meth addicts. One of the men said that if asked to kill his mother for a supply of meth, he would have done it with no questions asked. What does that say about meth addicts who do porn?
Certainly from a view of “informed consent”, pornographers should tell their talent exactly what they are getting into. Were entrance and exit interviews presented at either of the trials of Black or Hardcore? Did all the women know exactly what they were getting into?
One thing I do know for sure. If the industry does not regulate itself to some degree then the politicians will be happy to do it for them.
The President Says:
“… And since you mentioned snuff, even though it is impossible for various aspects, if a performer wants with all their heart to be offed in a movie, what gives any of us the right to stop them? …”
I don’t want to be part of your ugly world where women can sell themselves to be raped, tortured and killed for the profit and pleasure of others.
Art my friend, god bless you for pointing out the core issue of my discussion so eloquently: the adult industry can and must regulate itself and prevent the likes of Max Hardcore and Rob Black by all means necessary, otherwise the government will step in and do that.
Needless to say, if that happens everybody will pay the high cost for misdeeds of a few twisted evil doers; and the worst part is when that happens we won’t have the right to complain about the massive tragedy of government regulations which we could have prevented but didn’t. So basically I’m not only concerned about the naive new comers and the damages done to them under the pretence of making a Hardcore/Black movie, I’m also concerned about the well being and the reputation of the adult industry and all producers, myself included.
What some of the major producers must do is sit down and come up with a set of really basic, voluntary standards for their companies (SDI testing, record keeping, contracts, entrance/exit interviews, informed consent, performer health and safety, on-set drug use prohibition etc.) Adhering to these rules gets a seal of approval from the organization. Any other company who wants to join them can do so but only if they adhere to the code, agree to be audited and subject to random inspection. Non-joiners would soon become black listed, outcasts.
When forced with the threat of government censorship, the MPAA managed to fix itself in the 1960s. Also, in a rare showing of co-operation the adult industry has managed to get its head around uniform SDI screening. Let’s hope they can figure out some basic self governance before it is too late.
Colonel, what I have done all along here is to agree with you that the industry needs to regulate itself. None of your essential point has escaped me; however, in making it you have, I believe, made some unnecessary comparisons of obscenity to other issues. Also, I haven’t attempted to split hairs on the subject of obscenity or its legal definition – or “technicalities” as you say – let alone what it means to people individually, emotionally, or in any other regard. For the purpose of this particular debate regarding Max and Black/Borden, the only thing about obscenity is that it is the sole charge involved, and you can’t skirt around that fact or confuse it with any other issue. These were obscenity cases, plain and simple, and that is my only statement to the fact.
To insist that these, or any other obscenity case is ever a “slam dunk” is patently absurd. Why have there been so few obscenity cases – a mere handful – in recent history? Because they are very difficult to prosecute, and obscenity by its very nature is a legally vague concept. The Black/Borden case began back in 2003, and Max’s case in 2007, so it took a lot of legal wrangling over six years to send Black/Borden to the slammer, and Max was a little speedier, but these were not open-and-shut cases by any stretch. We can agree to disagree on this point. But you also insist that prosecutors could have brought other charges, yet there is no factual basis for this statement. What other charges, and brought by whom? Facts, please.
I’m playing a bit of the devil’s advocate here, only because I think that censorship, whenever and wherever it rears its ugly head, should send a chill through all of us in the adult industry. I agree with you, as I’ve said all along, that we need to set some industry standards with regard to content; however, you know as well as I that our business is made up of people who strive to work outside of any type of regulation. Most of us don’t even use our legal names professionally, for cryin’ out loud. There are no unions or guilds, and there is no way currently to enforce standards of any kind. I’m with you all the way on taking steps toward action. Let’s set up some panel discussions, either at the upcoming AEE or elsewhere, and get the ball rolling. Get the studios, producers, distributors, FSC, adult legal representatives, and adult media involved, and look at the ways we can set workable standards while avoiding the application of censorship.
I’d rather be proactive than be complacent and have to eventually deal with bureaucrats, politicians, private-interest groups, and all the various agendas that will come raining down on our heads should we fail to act on our own behalf.
None of that is going to happen because today anybody with a camera is a producer. And you are damn right, what you propose is a slippery slope to tamper with consent. You are just opening yourself up to potential problems when all it will take is one vindictive porn girl to cry rape.
—-I don’t want to be part of your ugly world where women can sell themselves to be raped, tortured and killed for the profit and pleasure of others.
Because you are a coward and a control freak who wants a say in other people’s lives and consenting adult choices which affect nobody but those involved.
Third Axis my friend, I know we’re on the same side, but the thing I don’t know and don’t understand is why it’s so difficult for you to accept that Max Hardcore & Rob Black obscenity cases were slam dunk. The government wanted to humilate them, bleed them financially and put them away; and they succeeded in every aspect.
I’m not going to argue about this anymore, I addressed the issues that I had to address both in the article and the comments; and I don’t need to turn this topic into a legal analyze of Max Hardcore/Rob Black trials. Thank you for your comments and I’ll look forward to chatting with you here on LIB.
Well, I’ll say it again: Six years in litigation with Black/Borden is not a “slam dunk,” and I can’t understand how you, Colonel, can’t see that. I’m simply trying to make my point clear on this. Why would any trial go on for six years if it was a “slam dunk?” Sure, they were eventually found guilty, but it took a very long time to prove that guilt. And it required an obscene expenditure of taxpayer dollars to prosecute for that long as well. That’s the humiliating part, my friend.
They’re all in prison, on the taxpayer’s dime still. No further analysis required.
Third Axis says:
‘Why would any trial go on for six years if it was a slam dunk?’
Because it’s the fed’s tactic to drag the case, prolong the process and financially destroy their opponent; and that’s exactly what happened to Rob Black: the attorney/legal fees broke his back. He lost his house and was forced to close down his company Extreme Associates. The same thing happened to Max Hardcore, this was not the only case against him, feds were dragging him to hell for the past 10 years and finally put him behind the bars when he was broke and stripped from all his financial sources. Today he’s begging money from his fans to pay his attorney/legal fees. You need to see the big picture, brother.
Oh, I do see the big picture. For every dollar that the state or federal government squeezes out of some lowlife pornographer over a prolonged period of time – and yes, Max’s shit was stirred beginning back in the late ’90s – they spend three times as many taxpayer dollars in legal expenses. These cases cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to prosecute, as you well know. That is a big picture, indeed. So, who is really losing here?
Right, the government shouldn’t enterfere and put criminals disguised as pornographers behind bars, they did the wrong thing by taking out the adult industry’s trash. They should have allowed them to continue raping and torturing naive new comers under the pretence of making movies. It would have been good for everybody. But to answer your question as to who’s really losing here, us as tax payers, but because we didn’t want to, or couldn’t, pick whichever you prefer, do what should have been done; so the government did it for us on our own expenses. America: the land of the free where nothing’s free, especially the freedom.
July 10th, 2009 (3 days ago) at 10:46 p
max softcore Says:
“.
S & M material such as what Kink.com produces is different, because girls who go to shoot a role playing/bondage scene for Kink.com know the particulars of what they have to do, they know getting tied up, getting whipped and crawling into a cage is part of the scenario. So at the end of the day if they go home with some bruises they won’t be shocked and surprised; while on the other hand girls who went to shoot a boy/girl/anal scene with Max Hardcore, ended up getting slapped, vomitting on his cock and drinking his piss. ”
Ugghhhhhh here we go again. Do you honestly think that these whores didn’t know the deal before they got to Max’s place? Max didn’t cover his bases by telling them first? Their agents forgot to tell them? They didn’t spend 10 seconds on the internet looking at his shit? You’re such an idiot. Say hi to Shelley for me at the next meeting…
You Sir, are an idiot. I worked for Max in ’98, he came highly RECOMMENDED by the ever-charming Jim South, my agent. The 1st time I worked for Max went rather smoothly, a little nasty, but a good time. The 2nd time, however, was like visiting Mr. Hyde-a completely different person. He had alcohol on his breath (It was 10 a.m.), and he seemed irritated by my presence. We got started, and he was a little rougher than the 1st time, but I let it slide. Before I knew it, he whipped out a speculum, hurt me, made me bleed, and berated me when I made him stop. His little dick was being wielded like a little pocket knife in my ass. That’s when I decided to stop the scene and call it a day. Reluctantly, he paid me my full amount, and I went on my way, however, if I weren’t such a headstrong person, I would have continued to let him abuse me. He was scary and mean and no, NO ONE EVER WARNED ME!! And back then, Max didn’t have a website, and yes, young girls getting into this business ARE that naive-that’s what the scum of this industry bank on.
Amber
Amber, thank you for sharing this experience and providing an example of how Max Hardcore used to ‘conduct his business’.
I am thrilled that the recent legal woes of Rob and Max are getting a dialogue going about the moral accountability for the industry.
I personally do don’t carry any Max Hardcore or Extreme Associates in my shop, and have been vocal in encouraging other XXX shops not to peddle the shit they put out and suggest lots of great kinky flicks made by consenting adults.
Most people, love or hate Rob & Max, have mixed feelings about them being in jail. It makes us all sad to see that it had to go that far and that the government had to step in and take control of an out of control situation. Everyone on this thread has brought up some great points about the Pandora’s box that this has opened, but agree or disagree…. maybe the next time some little man with a smaller dick goes to puke on a meth head on camera while making them read statements to their “mommy and daddy”… He will think twice about it…
Colonel, to your response above, you know that I never stated or even intimated any such thing. What I have said from the beginning is that these defendants got exactly what they deserved in being found guilty on the charges brought. But we must keep in mind that we, the people, bear the cost. Unless we in the industry set standards to keep such abuses from taking place under the guise of legitimate adult content production, our money will continue to be flushed down the toilet along with human excrement like Max Hardcore, Rob Black, Lizzie Borden, and a host of others yet to pile up.
Now what about the suggestions I’ve made to address these issues? Are we just going to palaver on LIB, or are we going to actually get something accomplished on the ground?
—-our money will continue to be flushed down the toilet along with human excrement like Max Hardcore, Rob Black, Lizzie Borden, and a host of others yet to pile up.
That’s the future, I think you must be psychic. I’d love to see your personal sets of guidelines for all movie makers everywhere to follow.
Third Axis brings up many of the points I wanted to stress days ago (on another thread about this topic). For an outside observer as myself, the porn industry has a very myopic and short-sighted approach to their protected freedoms.
First off, in my opinion, the industry needs to simply stop parsing the difference between the various varieties/flavors of porn. For when you get into this whole ‘well Jules Jordan is okay…but Jim Powers is a lowlife scumbucket’ you’re missing the forest for the trees. The Feds don’t give a shit between the nonsense Celeste, Naughty America, William H., Brian B. Plumper, Joey Silvera, Red Light District, Paul Thomas, et cetera produce and sell. They really don’t and the quicker porn realizes this, the better off they’ll be.
The Feds only really care about one thing…getting rid of porn (and you could probably tie that to most any government’s efforts to limit freedom under the guise of ‘controlling’ their population but that’s another argument for another time). Heck, you could probably argue that the government wants to control the population using porn to distract and keep society ‘happy’, but again, that’s getting into Pointy-Tin Hat territory.
Anyhow, the Feds tried to stamp out porn in the 50s with linking it to other ‘social ills’ such as marijuana use or juvenile delinquency. In the 60s, they thought they could get rid of it with connecting it to Free Love and Hippies. Come the 70s and 80s, they tried attacking it because the Mob ran/distributed porn and the rise of Cocaine Culture (never mind that the Feds didn’t exactly go after Disco and Nightclubs). Next in the 90s and today, they’re working the entire ‘obscenity’ track (to some success).
They go after guys like Max, because frankly the odds of getting a prosecution are better. Ask yourself, was Martha Stewart the ONLY person getting inside stock tips? Nope — but you drag her into court and people have an OPINION about her (as opposed to Average Stocktrader whom most will have some measure of sympathy for…thusly, the case will be harder to win for the Feds). So the Feds go after a Max Hardcore — and heck, you’re already halfway there when you say in court how his real name is Paul Little…but his porn alias is MAX HARDCORE.
Otherwise, the Feds are dragging someone like Mark Wood into court and the jury takes one look at the big goofball and are probably going to let him go or give him a slap on the wrist. That’s a waste of time on the Feds part. That’s why they rather spend years on a case like Max or Rob Black and not the same amount, or more, on prosecuting Mike John or Brandon Iron (whose stuff is just as ‘filthy’, just as ‘degrading’, just as ‘morally bankrupt’ to a jury that would give Max time in jail).
As mentioned by others on this post, there’s far TOO MUCH EMOTION involved in this debate. When Pornographer X starts pointing fingers at Pornographer Y, the only winner is the US Government. Sure, The Colonel and others have their individual horror stories about people like Max, but that’s immaterial to what they produce for a living (as I’m sure there’s plenty of people with all sorts of horror stories about well-know, mainstream figures from mainstream industries).
For every story about how some naive women was duped into working for the likes of JM Productions, there’s just as many stories about some naive person of either gender who went to work for say a mainstream talent agency (and was repeatedly sexually harassed), or they went to work for a garment factory (and forced to work 18 hour shifts with no break), or they went to work for a computer software giant and were cheated out of their overtime hours, et cetera. The bottom line is that in most all industries, there are those who follow the laws of the land and others who thumb their nose and do as they wish (knowing full well, the law may eventually catch up to them).
So excuse me if I have to laugh sometimes at the all of the back and forth about people like Max/Black et cetera. Sure, they are not ‘model pornographers’ — but then, show me who is and I’ll cut you a deal on some swamp land I have down in Florida and a NYC bridge I own a few shares in.
If Porn was serious about getting rid of guys like Max, they’d blow the whistle on him for all of the alleged crimes he’s perpetrated (intoxicated while on set, mental abuse, physical abuse, rape, sexual trauma, yadda, yadda, yadda). Yet oddly, there are few willing to go on the record and have Max face the music. I wonder why…
…could it be because a majority of Porn Valley engages in the same type of behaviors (perhaps not as extreme, but still engages in). Could there be many producers/directors/talent who are intoxicated while on set, who push people’s personal boundaries, who put out questionable material — but because they are generally well-liked, pay decent rates, and don’t treat others poorly, they’re allowed and even encouraged to continue doing so?
At the end of the day, Porn needs to grow up. The entire industry needs to have clear cut rules of conduct. None of this, “…well you’re cool so it’s okay if you have a few beers and joints on the set while waiting…and also, I don’t mind if you ‘throat fuck’ me — just stop and go back to ‘regular BJ’ when I puke for the third time…”.
Max, Black, Jim Powers are NOT the problem…the problem is that children are in charge of the candy store and don’t know when to put down the jellybeans and eat a nutritious/healthy meal.
Amen.
Third Axis says:
‘What about the suggestions I’ve made to address the issues?’
I’m not in any position to set and impose any guidelines and standards on the adult industry, nor that I want to be in such position. I’m one of many people who make a living by producing adult movies; perhaps the difference between me and lots of others is that I’m more concerned, or obsessed, pick whichever you prefer, about the well being, health and livelihood of myself and my co-workers. When an 18 year old, fresh off the bus girl walks into my set, I tend to treat her as a person, as an employee rather than an object. I don’t allow myself to take misadvantage of her vulnerability; and I believe nobody else under any pretence should be allowed to do so either.
That’s why I always speak about the issues which can and will directly and negatively impact my life and livelihood as well as the lives and livelihood of my co-workers, the issues such as denouncing criminals like Max Hardcore & Rob Black and not allowing them to hide behind the pretence of making movies, preventing transsexuals, homosexuals, cross over performers and IV drug users from working in the straight sector of the adult industry in order to reduce the risk of HIV contraction, etc. These issues are not black and white and certainly not easy to debate, especially in a society such as ours in which people with the least amount of actual knowledge and experience about these issues tend to express their opinions and fight for them. However, these issues must be brought to light and discussed, and if there has to be a fist fight to prove what’s decent and right and true, so be it.
With that being said, I will continue to discuss these issues both on LIB and other industry panels and I encourage the other concerned members of the adult industry to do so and raise awareness. In the end and with all said and done, it comes down to each and every individual to read, listen, research, think and draw their conclusions.
I’d like to finish this note by quoting French writer/philosopher Blaise Pascal:
‘We know the truth, not only by the reason, but also by the heart.’
colonel, how have you been i haven’t commented in few days, because my brother is in town from out of state, so we have been visiting. colonel back in the day with bondage movies, was it against the law to show penetration while the slave was restrained, be it with hands and feet bound or with arms bound trying to show “forced” cocksucking
I’ve been fine, Jerry, except for the wheather which has been overly hot in California in the past few days.
As for your question about the bondage scenes, fucking somebody while she’s restrained and tied up has always been somewhat controversial, it’s one of the things that can get you in trouble if the feds want to build an obscenity case against you. It was in fact one of the acts mentioned in the infamous Cambria List in early 2000, along with pissing, transsexuals, bi-sex, etc.
Say hi to your brother and have fun.
Colonel,
In post #28 you say ” “under certain ircumstances the end justifies the means.” You get away with alot of shit talking on this site, but you lose ALL cedibility in any discussion of real political issues with a stance like this. Without even delving past the tip of the iceberg that this stance supports, I will ask you one simple question,
“Who gets to choose what those circumstances are, and who gets to choose the means?” There is no greater slippery slope of all slippery slopes, than believeing that the end justifies the means. You obviously have NO RESPECT at all for the CONSTITUTION.(but it sure is nice to hide behind with a fake name on an internet blog).
So, who gets to choose Colonel…. You, me, your local police, the church, the FBI, the Justice Dept., your neighbor, the local rabbi,the muslin fundamentalist, Max Hardcore, or all of the above and anyone else who thinks they are justified in whatever cause they are supporting. Anarchy is not the answer.
Just a short list of people who believe that the ends justify themeans. Timothy McVeigh, Osamam Bin Laden,Adolph Hitler, Eric R. Rudolph(abortion clinic bomber), John Wilkes Boothe, Richard Nixon,… get the point?
OOOPS, add the colonel to the list. Would you support strapping a bomb to a 10 year old to blow up a market full of people? Of course you wouldnt, but there are millions of people who believe that these means are justifiable. Millions of right wing christians in the U.S. feel that it would be justified to use any means to put any and all pornographers, including you Colonel, in jail, using any means necessary. Would they be justified?
“It was necessary to destroy the village in order to save it.”
For anyone who may be interested, here is an excellent – and lengthy – article, from the Vanderbilt University Law School Journal of Entertainment & Technology Law, examining in depth the Max Hardcore case, as well as discussion about the pending John Stagliano obscenity case and the implications of other current cases upon the adult industry. Do your homework, kids:
“The 2008 Federal Obscenity Conviction of Paul Little and What It Reveals About Obscenity Law and Prosecutions”: http://law.vanderbilt.edu/publications/journal-entertainment-technology-law/archive/index.aspx
“If Max Hardcore and Rob Black are to be allowed to produce torture scenes under the pretence of making pornographic movies, then a serial killer must also be allowed to kill and dismember people under the pretence of making horror movies.”
Colonel you hit the nail on the head 😉
Great post.
That is the most absurd assumption I’ve ever read, and no logic can be wrapped around it. I challenge any of you great minds out there to defend murder in relation to the ACTED portrayal of “torture.” Anybody understand BDSM? Come on, people, use your brains!
The Colonel – “I’m not in any position to set and impose any guidelines and standards on the adult industry, nor that I want to be in such position. I’m one of many people who make a living by producing adult movies; perhaps the difference between me and lots of others is that I’m more concerned, or obsessed, pick whichever you prefer, about the well being, health and livelihood of myself and my co-workers.”
While I support the central argument the Colonel makes (Porn needs to police itself before the Government does it for them), the fact that he’s not willing to take a true leadership role to implement his suggestions and ideas (many of them spot on and very well thought out), makes him one of many cowards in the Porn Industry.
You make a good living doing what you love…yet you’re not willing to protect that living, by standing up and fixing what’s wrong in Porn Valley?!? Be it performers who work while intoxicated and uninformed about their coworkers to producers and agents who willingly lie about what the scene will be for that day….you’ve decided that “hey, it’s not my problem until it effects my bottom line and then I might do something about it…like posting my ideas on a internet blog.”
That’s the kind of faulty logic Gov. Palin tried to use to bolster her fast crumbling political support, when she quit her office a year and half before she was officially done. Because we all know how much better our own state could be run if our governor decided to throw in the towel and let the guy under him have a promotion. Leaders don’t quit or shirk from responsibility. They stick it out, through thick and thin. Yes they might be wrong, sure they could be right, but they don’t just take their toys and go home like a spoiled brat. They fight for their beliefs, they fight for others less able to, they fight until they are done with the challenges in front of them.
Again, I’m not saying you have to like/love/embrace the likes of Max, Rob Black, Jim Powers et cetera — but the Porn Industry does need to understand that they must enforce the basic laws of the US while in the course of their own business dealings. If there are people in porn who are abusive, serial rapists, drug peddlers, tax cheats, and otherwise engage in shady business activities…then alert the authorities and get rid of them no matter who they are, no matter how well they are liked by the community.
Because once the Porn Community stops playing favorites, as it does now when it supports the makers of Sperm Receptacles 8 and Jailbait 5 against the people who made Slap Her In The Craper and Meatholes 11, the better off it’ll be as a whole and the less interference it’ll likely get from the Feds no matter which political party is in power.
No Third Axis, that is not an absurd assumption, that is the reality, and frankly I’m getting sick and tired of going around the circles with you and other strongly opinionated, ill informerd people with too much time on their hands and nothing better to do with their lives except for arguing about the wheather and the color of the sky. I can only repeat myself too often, and this is the last and final time: what Max Hardcore & Rob Black did was actual torture and inflicting real physical, emotional and psychological pain and suffering on young, naive, vulnerable, unsuspecting victims. There was no set up, no pre-rehearsed scripts and no speacial effects. They did that in real time to real people under the pretence of making porn movies and exercising their freedom of expression. So if they’re allowed to do such real damage as a way to express themselves, then a serial killer can also be allowed to kill and dismember people and as long as he films his killings, he can also be allowed to continue under the pretence of making horror movies and exercising his freedom of expression. If you don’t understand this, then you don’t understand and I could care less. I can’t go around the circles with you anymore than I did, nor that I have to. You have my best wishes.
And Sammy Glick, my personal and professional responsibility is to discuss the crucial issues which many people seem to avoid or don’t understand, and raise awareness. I cannot and do not want to take any leadership role to implement anything to anybody. Adult people can read and listen to what I have to say, do their research, draw their conclusions, agree or disagree with me and decide for their lives on their own and face the good, bad or ugly consequences of their decisions.
Colonel,
We all know you like to say things to create controversy, but to equate what Black and Max do to actual MURDER is so ridiculous that it barely deserves comment. Personally, I think you make such statements just to fan the flames and get more traffic to your posts. I do not believe that you are so stupid as to believe the things you actually wrote, but it sure does create that controversy you so deeply crave and the attention it brings you.
And back to the question I posed to you earlier, “Who should get to decide when, and under what circumstances, should any means be used to reach the justified ends.? If 30 million right wing christians feel that any means should be used to prosecute YOU for producing pornography, should they be alowed to use ANY means to do it?
You bought up the ends justify the means, and youstated in the post above it is your…”personal and proffessional responsibility to discuss the crucial issues which many people seem to avoid or dont understand…” SInce you beleive that the ends justify the means please explain to us how that in any way jives with the constitution, and who should be allowed to make the decision to disregard the constitution in order to reach the ends that you believe are justified?
I truely cannot wait to see your response to this very slippery slope which you advocate as justifiable.
Colonel, the only circle here is you chasing your tail. Murder is murder, murder is illegal as well as immoral, and to compare it to ANYTHING else done in porn is absurd. I’m frankly wearied by going off on these explanatory tangents with you, because your logic is so obviously way off. And no, this is not reality, except in your own mind, and you don’t need to re-state anything you’ve already written. We all get it. These trials are over and done with. Finis. There will be others.
I’m far from ill-informed, my friend, and I’ll go toe-to-toe with you on any intellectual discourse regarding obscenity, the law, or anything else related to this thread. I think you’re merely being an armchair pundit, with no intention of actually doing anything to make a broad change in these issues you apparently feel so strongly about. To sit and write without backing up anything you pontificate about is a bald cop-out. I have strong opinions as well as you, and just as much time on my hands as you seem to have to discuss these issues relating to my/your business and my/your livelihood. But while I’m prepared to put my money and time on the line to rally support from my industry, you just talk. I could give two shits about the weather or the color of the sky. You’re being intellectually lazy.
Colonel,
I just thought of something. There are actually only a few people who could ever make that decision you advocate…”under certain circumstances the end justifies the means”(the colonel says)
That list of people has in the past included, John Ashcroft, Edwin Meese, George Bush, Mary Beth buchanan, Antonio Gonzalez, and Anthony Scalia.
I find it almost funny that a pornographer would advocate this type of judicial activism to reach the ends(max and rob in jail) that you seem to have no problem with. I have a sneaking suspicion that you would change your tune real quick the day and indictment for YOU was filed in court. Your hypocrisy is almost laughable if it werent so frightening.
Rockpete,
You just dont get it. If Max and Rob, or anybody else are guilty of torture or rape, or any other crime, then charge them with those crimes. The comparison to Al Capone being busted on tax evasion is not an accurate analogy because Capone was also GULTY of the crime he was charged with.
To compare Max and Rob with a serial killer committing murder is laughable.
Or is rockpete just another Colonel alt id. created to agree with himself as he has been known to do?
General, when you offered me friendship and mutual respect, I accepted and shoke hands with you because I believed in your good intentions. You came to this thread and made a point which had nothing to do directly with the issue which we’re discussing here and I didn’t respond to you because I didn’t want the thread to be derailed and distances from the main issue which is protecting vulnerable, naive young girls from the likes of Max Hardcore & Rob Black.
It seems you’re resorting to your old worn out tactics in fighting a war of words. I won’t do that with you and if you continue to spam and derail my thread, you will be kicked out. However, if you want to have a reasonable conversation about the general issues such as morality vs. law, how the end justifies the means, etc. you can write your concerns in an email, send it to Cindi and ask her to forward it to me. We may be able to have a discussion then based on rationale and mutual respect.
Third Axis says:
‘I could give two shits about the weather or the color of the sky. ‘
And I could give two shits about what someone like you says or thinks about me and my business. You see, you’re a tragic example of nobody nice guys who take themselves too seriously and believe their own bullshit. I’m sorry it had to come to this, but you were asking for it. So please whatever you do and whatever you say, just don’t pretend you’re in the adult industry, because that’s an insult to intelligence, and I can prove that chronically:
You started commenting on LIB on April. Your first comments were on my article ‘This Thing of Ours’ about the future of the adult industry. In your first comment, you praise Randy West who at the time was also commenting on the same article of mine. You sounded like a complete fanboy and were upset with me and the way I usually comment about fanboys. I explained to you I normally address the obsessed, stalking fanboys but on the other hand I do respect those who follow porn as their hubby and not their obsession and are educated, intelligent people. You liked that and started chatting with me.
Then on the same article, somebody asked a question about 3-D porn, you took that idea and ran away with it and wrote a long, fictional account about how you work for a company that develops 3-D technology for porn companies; I let you play with your game of attention seeking and blabbering because you seemed like a nice guy.
A few weeks later in May, the HIV outbreak happened which at that point, I wrote another article titled ‘Sink or Swim’ to address that. I started asking questions about the people involved in shooting the scene with HIV positive MILF, and all of a sudden you turned into an adult industry insider and sided with me for the benefit of what you like to call ‘our industry’. From that point on, Third Axis, you became the third wheel on LIB and pushed your imagination further until we got to this point. This is not something you can deny, your comments on my previous articles are available on LIB archives and anybody who likes to can follow your evolution from above the average fanboy to the adult industry insider on a public message board and in your personal imagination. But I assure you nobody believes you bullshit and nobody give two shits except for yourself. So you can drop the act and go mind your own business anytime, assuming you have any business.
I did my part and keep doing my part which is discussing the important issues and make people think and draw their own conclusions. Some people agree with me, some people don’t, it’s up to them. But I don’t need to prove myself to somebody like you or listen to your ridiculous blabbering about the issues that you don’t fully understand and have no effect whatsoever on your life and livelihood. Have a nice day, pardner.
After some of his most recent comments, one could almost assume that The Colonel actually ENJOYS the disharmony within the Porn Industry (and/or he’s just crazy for its own sake).
For why would a person who is an established, well-educated presence within said industry, with many applicable ideas on how to better said industry, not want to take the lead on fixing said industry?! Instead, The Colonel rather get all worked up over all of the alleged crimes (since they were never charged, not that they didn’t take place) of people like Max Hardcore/Rob Black, et cetera and put his thoughts in pithy essays on the internet.
I’ll say it again, Porn needs to clean its act up…or others will do it for them. Pure and simple. If there’s shady BS going on during a shoot, call the proper authorities and let them deal with them…away from the actual production of pornography. The fight to make porn legally is over and in case you didn’t know, it was successfully waged…now the industry must fight again to become a truly ‘adult’ business. Otherwise, the children running roughshod within it are going to drag it down and sow the seeds of self-destruction.
Because as stated, the Feds don’t give a shit how many awards Jules Jordan has…if they think they can get a major conviction off of a movie called Weapons of Ass Destruction or Pump My Ass Full Of Cum, they will skip going after JM Productions’ Mexicunts or Anal Cum Swappers (despite the latter being often disgusting and dull-witted pornographic material produced by, in the eyes of many, humanoid pond scum).
if the Colonel actually believes in what he’s saying, and really does care about “protecting vulnerable, naive young girls” he wouldn’t take the neutral position of “I did my part and keep doing my part which is discussing the important issues and make people think and draw their own conclusions.” Instead, he’d be a true leader in an industry which has given him so much over the many years he’s been a vital part of.
I already answered you on this one, Sammy, didn’t I? But it seems you just can’t get enough of me and can’t stop riding on my coat tail. So be it then, take the ride and have fun while you’re at it.
I can’t decide if I like the colonel, or not. Sometimes he is charming and others he is childish. He seems to have a deep seated dislike for anyone who is not like him, or who disagrees with him. I would say that he was probably a very spoiled only child. He’s fine if you give him his way, but cross him and he’d have you kille d or at least call you every name he can think of. Sort of like a school yard bully. He picks on people all the time, but if anyone picks on him back it’s time to throw them off the board and delete their comments.
No riding coat-tails on my side of the cyber fence, rather — you should own your words and take the steps necessary to FIX what you see as BROKEN in Porn Valley…or just sit in your little corner of the world being smug and satisfied that people like Max Hardcore and Rob Black are in jail.
Either way, I’ll still be able to enjoy legal porn, and you’ll still be angry that no one listens to your GOOD and LOGICAL ideas.
Yet for reasons all your own, you’re content throwing stones in the glass house that is the modern day Porn Industry. Instead of making the business a better one, your just going to keep playing the fiddle of “I told you so” while Porn Valley all but catches on fire due to a lot of stupid behavior that brings unnecessary attention and legal action onto your friends, enemies and colleagues.
Which is sad, as many have already said on this post that you have a lot of very good and reasoned ideas about the Porn Industry. Why you don’t want to take ownership of them, and who knows, maybe even some day be CREDITED with being the savior of the business in the wake of intense Federal scrutiny after a few high-profile cases, is a mystery to be tackled another day.
You’re here Biatch, nobody has deleted your comments yet; besides, lets’ say I’ll buy you a box of donuts and we make up and be friends again, how about that?
By the way, I wasn’t the only child in my family, I had a sister, two brothers and one cruel step father, not a happy childhood, not by any stretch. That’s why I left for California and got into porn all those years ago, and that’s why I know how it feels like to jam all your life into a suit case and take the bus to a strange place to build your life a new and start all over. I don’t know if you were ever in that situation, but I have, and that’s not something I ever forget or wish on anybody else.
So when I see people like myself, male or female, and trust me in this line of work I see them everyday, I can’t allow myself to fuck them over and take misadvantage of them. I don’t want that to happen to them and I’ll do my part to prevent that. If some people think what I do is not good enough, they’re more than welcome to step in and do it their way.
colonel, or any one else help me out here, a few weeks ago someone commented that an english girl who did a scene with paul little, was so mentally traumatized to what he did to her, that she ended up in a mental ward for a bit. me, i’m thinking it was maybe barbi bucxx, she was english and a real cutie.
“… it had to come to this…” DUH-DUH-DUH-D-U-H-H-H!
Colonel, you’re pretty funny when you get your little Napoleon hat knocked all crooked and your panties in a bunch.
Although, I’m touched that you’ve kept such a careful diary of our relationship together…
See you in the trenches.
pornfan, are you thinking of Catalina? She ended up in a mental hospital because of Max too.
darrah, catalina may have ended up in one, i heard that as well. no, someone commented that it was a british girl. i have’nt seen all his videos, but i remember he had a cute blonde british girl, thats why i’m thinking it was barbi bucxx. but thanks for getting back to me, someone will hopefully know something. this girl thats with him know, who has appeared in alot of his movies, i forget her name. is she really going to wait on this scumbag to get of prison?
I heard of that British girl who went crazy after encountering Max. Wasn’t that part of some documentary?
Max made good money from his videos so it easy to see why he did it (great house, lots of good drugs), but did the Zicaris make enough money for it to be worth prison time?
Jerry, I believe you’re talking about the British girl named Felicity. She was introduced to Max Hardcore by Dick Nasty. Hardcore was mean and rough to her and kept fucking her in the ass despite she tried to stop him. At that point, the camera man put down the camera and left the scene, because to quote him directly: he didn’t want to participate in a rape. Eventually Hardcore had to let go of her. Felicity who was traumatized by this incident, went back to England and talked about it on several British TV programs and that started a controversy for Hardcore.
Catalina AKA Serena, on the other hand, is the Latino girl who appeared in a number of Max Hardcore movies and at some point was living in his house. As far as I know, she ended up in the mental hospital because of her relationship with Hardcore.
Max Hardcore got nobody and nothing waiting for him once he gets out of the slammer. He’s gonna crawl into a hole somewhere in Texas and waits untill he dies. The world won’t fucking miss him.
So Max at least has two certified kills sent to a mental hospital, there must be more.
Hello boys and girls, sorry I have not weighed in but excellent article Colonel as usual.
I have also enjoyed the comments.
One question though, yes there is no guild or union, but it is agreed upon that everyone must have an up to date AIM test. So what powers at be put that together? Who makes you follow that?
Your right Colonel your industry needs to police it’s self. It has been your saving grace so far to really be under the radar or the Federal Government, but if more Maxhardcors/Blacks start popping up the Government will step in.
So yes now you have brought it to the light, now you need to do something about it.
You cannot scream “the sky is falling” and then not help get people out of the way!
Always my love and kisses!
It’s good to have you back on the board, Kay. The question about AIM is relevant, if you remember I told you in one of our conversations that having a current AIM test is one of those unwritten laws that most people, if not everybody, follows in the adult industry.
As for other regulations such as preventing the likes of Max Hardcore and Rob Black, banning homosexuals, transsexuals and cross over performers from working with straight people, etc. I said this before and I say it again: it comes to each and every individual to decide for themselves. I can’t play The Judge Dread of the adult industry, nobody can. What I can do, is to bring the issues to the spot light, open the dialogue, raise awareness and enlighten people to the best of my ability. That’s what writers do.
Let me ask you this: when Paul Krugman writes an article about the economy and warns about certain dangers such as the increasing budget deficit, outsourcing jobs to foreign countries, endless bailouts, etc. does it mean that he also has to play the Messiah of the American economy? No. He does his part which is asking the questions, discussing the issues and raising awareness; the same thing I’m doing here for the adult industry. Why people expect more from me and want me to play the hero is beyond me.
Colonel you are always my hero!
But no I don’t believe that you alone need to play the Messiah, but there must be others that are like minded like you and can ban together and step in. Even unofficially. I know you love this industry and do not want to see it destroyed. And for the record I am only supporting the part about bad directors hurting the industry.
And when our good friend Paul Krugman writes, no it is not his job to be the Messiah either, but as the old saying goes when he speaks people listen.
Thank you Kay. I can only hope when I speak people also listen, even though I don’t expect everybody to agree with me. I’ll write another article and explain why there can never be a set of specific guidelines and standards imposed on the entire adult industry, and why every individual must make well informed decisions in order to protect his/her personal benefit as well as the benefit of the entire industry. It’s a vast subject and I can’t compress my thoughts about it into one comment. Stay tuned, we’ll talk about this more.
And for the record, cross over performers such as Christian XXX, Tom Moore and Seth Dickens are as much dangerous for the adult industry as the likes of Max Hardcore and Rob Black. I’ll explain this extensively in my next article.
colonel, thanks for that info about the british chick, who was assaulted by paul little. intended to get online yesterday but spent time with my brother. i’m going to do a search on this felicity. does’nt ring a bell now, but once i see a pic of her i might be familiar with her. thanks
You’re welcome, Jerry.