Casper comments:
Nina [Hartley] writes “So, like him or hate him, we must stand behind Max’s right to be offensive. It may be him, now, but they’re gunning for all of us.”
Well Nina, you couldn’t be more wrong on this and neither can any of your friends who have posted above.
Censorship CAN and should be used on occasion. Hollywood polices itself all of the time, why do you think we have the MPAA? Just because you have shot something, that simply does not mean that it can be shown. Nina’s misguided ideas, usually compounded by liberals thinking they know better than most, suggests that it’s a shooters right to be offensive, well, that’s simply nonsense.
With that logic child porn is “ok”. Why not? I mean really, if there is no boundries then why should shooting a girl under 18 but over 15 be illegal?
There MUST be some accountablility in what shooters and porn companies produce and distribute. You guys are no different than Hollywood. Hollywood supports freedom of expression, that’s why it’s called showBUSINESS. But they also understand that not everything that comes down the pike should be allowed. Again, that’s why we have the MPAA. if a filmmaker makes a film that the board deems too violent or too sexual, they slap it with an NC-17, the kiss of death to those of us who make mainstream films because they know that we will never be able to get a good distribution on the product.
The problem with Max is simple, he’s simply trying to convince people that he’s talented, that he’s pushing the boundries when in actuality all he’s doing is proving that he has no respect to his own craft.
Max purposely goes against the grain with what I believe society has already said is a product that we as a society must never allow. Sure, there is a genuine fear with following this line of thinking, but folks, let me remind you of something, having a democracy does not entitle you to do whatever you want, say whatever you want without being checked once or twice on ocassion. Sure, we have liberty, but in a fair and responsible democracy we also have limitations and responsible behaviour and Max has again proved that he simply does not wish to go along with the limits most civil people have set. An that’s fine, but if you play with fire then expect to get burned on ocassion.
Again, Max is getting his due and so he needs to learn to accept it and remember that there is a line you cannot cross.
This is the real problem with the adult industry as there is no real line of accountability. It’s like the wild west. but I believe that very soon if the industry does not straighten up I believe the Feds are going to make that line even more clear. And they should if the industry don’t step up and do what’s right. There should be an established board like the MPAA everyone adheres to, but I fear it’s going to take a Governmental kick in the ass to make it happen, or fear of one.
Casper, I agree that the porn industry should have some kind of policing policy – more for legal security and healthy working conditions than content checks.
One aspect of the current Max drama that few industry folks or fans seem willing to talk about is the fact that Max’s movies, as much as you may not like them, fill a huge consumer demand.
I’ve met the guy, and I’ve heard a lot of things about him. Who knows what the truth is. The two things this industry has no shortage are assholes and assumptions.
Although I don’t care for all Max Hardcore movies (especially his recent stuff – there, I agree with your point about pushing boundaries for the sake of pushing boundaries), some of his antics and a lot of his professional practices (specifically talent treatment), I’m not gonna lie or hide: I love his old movies.
The fantasy fodder he explores is dangerous territory, and takes a lot of gall and balls. As a fan of early Max movies, I gotta applaud him for that.
In obscenity territory, one thing we should be talking about is whether porn pushes demand or demand pushes porn. It would be interesting to hear what fellow semi-pedophiliacs have to say about that.
You know you’re out there.
Well, I’m glad you posted your position on this as most adult producers and directors won’t step up and discuss it. Actually I was a director for several years myself, and a very successful one at that, but, here’s the problem with your last statement about demand.
I do agree with you about the demand for edgy material like what Max produces, but here’s the thing, demand is no excuse for bad behaviour.
Last year alone the DEMAND for child porn was over 300% by the NCMEC – a child exploitation awareness organization, that is up 150% from 2005, that’s a HUGE demand for child porn. Now, if we take the argument that “Well, there is a demand for it, we got to produce it” mentality, then what you have is chaos.
Demand is not a greenlight to produce everything your mind can think of you know? If that’s the case what about making actual rape scenes and profiting from them?? Can you do that? Should you do that? I can gurantee you, and I am speaking from experience here, there IS a huge demand for rape scenes, and if a company ever did produce legitimate rapes films their profits would go through the roof, but so would their convictions.
Why? because at some point society made it clear that there is somethings that we as a human body cannot accept or allow.
You can justify everything by claiming “demand”, there is demand for drugs, but we have made it clear to keep this nation productive, we outlaw some drugs, good or bad, that’s the law, but to keep a society civil, we must have some sort of control, some sort of line we cannot cross, and Max has – in my opinion – breached that line. And I believe he’s going to pay for it.
This should be a wake up call for the adult industry that says, we are going to set some rules that says no longer will anyone produce certain products.
Again, why is it okay for Hollywood to regulate itself and not the porn industry? You guys can’t have it both ways ya know.
Its useless to defend Max, and besides he’s not Lenny Bruce. If Max is the poster boy for porn’s fight for freedom, then the business is sick, though with Bill Margold as its spokesman, maybe Max isnt so bad.
I’d suggest watching THIS FILM IS NOT YET RATED for the real politics behind the MPAA, the establishment of which had nothing to do with “the public good” & everything to do with making nicey-nicey with Congress so Hollywood could make a more adult product to compete with the then-bland programming on TV while still protecting itself from government intervention.
As for Americans NOT having the right to be “saying whatever you want” — court decisions have determined that unless there is a demonstrable danger to public safety OR if said speech is determined by a jury to meet the three-prong definition of “obscenity,” that pesky First √Ömendment does indeed promise each & every citizen EXACTLY that right. While the deliberately imprecise definition of obscenity continues to be fought in various courts, there’s never been any serious legal discourse about any sort of right to keep public or private discourse “civil.”
& while demand alone certainly doesn’t justify the existence of ANYTHING, dragging in the travesty of the American war on drugs, where certain substances are kept illegal despite decades of testimony & proof from medical & law enforcement officials simply because they don’t fit into the long or short-term economic plans of big pharma, the tobacco industry & the liqour industry hardly makes for a coherent comparison.
Dissing Nina’s opinion because she’s “liberal” (i.e., “educated”) is as ignorant as painting all smut peddlers as soulless panderers who are woefully unlearned in pertinent areas of constitutional law.
This so called line has been crossed in Europe for decades. Puritan America needs to grow up and mature like the old country. No wonder why we are doomed to be outpopulated by illegal aliens. The day will come when we wish sexuality was not an evil for the white man. But by that time we will have lost the culture and soverignty of this nation. All because prude police are afraid of their own sexual shadows. LOL!
RUN FORREST RUN!
I really get a kick out of people when they spout such nonsense as what you just spouted, as it shows that you don’t know shit about the reality of it all.
Look, go ahead and be like Europe, but let me remind you that europeans don’t feel the same in respects to morals such as america does. Did you know that most europeans think child porn is not harmful??? Did you know that most europeans believe that abusive and repulsive behaviour should be allowed to exist when it coems to adult films? Including CHILD PORN???
What seems to be missing in this discussion is the fact that most on here advocate a “anything goes” mentality. And you simply cannot do that in a civil society. And by the way, don’t defend your point of view by suggesting that most obscene porn films have not met societies obscenity standards. You can never, in most cases go along with everything society says, that’s the danger of living in a democracy as well. 200 yrs ago in this nation slavery was considered – by society standards – as a moral good, actually it was considered a notch on ones community standard to own slaves, that’s how most people judged the truely wealthy from the poor, by who had slaves and who didn’t.
But the point to this is Max, none of his videos can be considered as a free speech case when in actuality there is no grounds for defending a video of a man pissing down a girls throat. Do you honestly think that is art????? Seriously.
The problem I’m seeing with most industry insiders is that they seem to not want a line of decency. Sure, they go out of there way to suggest that protecting children is vital, but when you pin them down to a true position on the matter, they hate any true line of moral clarity.
In other words they don’t want any line that they cannot cross, and that my friends is the danger as it takes an “anything goes” mentality.
You want to live in europe, move there, but don’t expect true americans to follow suit.
Porners in Europe perform bizarre kink sex acts and like it. Girls here grin and bare it or act as if they’re being raped. That is the difference between good and bad porn. Therefore, Max should take his yellow show to Europe. America is now a fascist state where moral elitists tell us how to live our lives while they practice virtual dictatorship. Enough already. Don’t like yellow porn, don’t watch it. It’s as simple as that.
Quote: “Did you know that most europeans think child porn is not harmful??? Did you know that most europeans believe that abusive and repulsive behaviour should be allowed to exist when it coems to adult films? Including CHILD PORN???”
Dear casperxxx,
you, sir, are an idiot to boot! A shmok like no other!
Your above-quoted assertion has got to be the most ludicrous, uninformed, uneducated and flat-out stupid statement I’ve ever read on lukeisback.com!
Do you realise that you are accusing about 728 million people of endorsing child pornography? Dozens of countries and hundreds of ethnic groups? Do you realise that you are insulting 11% of the world’s population? Including myself…
Have you ever seen a school from the inside? Have your eyes ever beheld anything but the inside of your rectum? Do you have a brain? Even a single functioning brain cell?
Let me be the first to congratulate you on making yourself the (unofficial) “Most Stupid Poster On Lukeisback Ever”! Of course, I have to leave it up to Mr. Luke Ford to bestow this title on you officially.
Maybe he can award you with some nice “shiny, shiny” metallic object for your accomplishment. Looking at it will keep you occupied for the waking hours of at least a few months ahead and, maybe, prevent you from becoming an even bigger embarrassment to yourself through further publicly displayed keyboard gymnastics. But there is hope! There is a slight chance that you could accidentally grow a brain before you can focus on sharing your valuable insights with the world again…
And self-proclaimed “true americans” like you wonder why anti-Americanism is rampant around the world?
My deepest, heartfelt mitgefil to all my american friends who have to share the same soil with a shvants like you!
Yours faithfully,
Luca Avishai Eisenstein
Citizen of “one of those European countries” you most likely don’t know the name of, but hey, they’re not in the U.S. anyway, so fuck ’em…
For me this discussion just gets at porners own boundary issues and why as a result of not being able to see the wood for the trees because you are the trees, you failed to sort this problem out yourselves by applying peer pressure and stopping this pervert from operating.
Personally I think you need to take a good long hard look at why but some how I rather feel those boundary issues are just going to filter out any clear picture.
This is why people have to be locked up to protect the innocent from being abused. And I mean real abuse not alpha women who are into sexual sub abuse
Everybody agrees that child porn is not to be tolerated in a civil society, here or elsewhere. But then that is not the topic of this story. And changing the subject to the lowest common denominator does not group all porn with the sick illegal variety. Max is being witchhunted because he is the shock jock of smut. He is not a kiddy pornographer.
So tell me ForrestHump and anyone else out there who may have an 8 or 10 year old daughter would you be happy for this guy to look after them for a weekend while you go off and enjoy yourself?
This guy uses a strong inference of underage abuse and
does so ad nauseum, for those of a predilection to this vile
subject his films not only normalises but gives a powerful attraction.
Its my view that this is wrong. If I had to put that against
freedom of speech, freedom of speech would loose out.
I would however defend Luke’s right to take the photographs
he takes without tomato basil soup bribery which I find disgraceful.
Sorry but I haven’t got the time to get the lay out right.
Forest, and Luca, let me explain my position that you both obviously don’t get. So I’ll type slowly this time so you can better understand it.
This is NOT about child porn, it has everything to do with ABSOLUTES. The notion of kiddy porn is simply a purpose directed toward the production of materials that push the boundries to which Max has been doing, and let’s be fair, others as well.
Look, it’s real simple. If most of you people agree with Max’s “constitutional” right LOL, to produce content that in reality pushes the line further back, then where is the line????
See, that’s what none of you want to discuss. That’s the real issue.
LFP, Wicked, Vivid, Red Light, Adam and Eve, and the list goes on and on and on, they secretly don’t want a line, no matter how much they may say they don’t endorse Max or pushing the moral code in content, they in fact DO believe in pushing the boundries. And that’s the real problem.
Ask Joy King, ask Steve Hirsch, ask Peter Reynolds, ask Rob black about should there be a difinitive line to making porn and they will – when pushed to the wall – say no.
That is the problem.
So, if there is no difinitive line to go to, to set up for all to see and ndever cross, then you cannot argue against kiddy porn, you can’t! There is no fucking way to argue against child porn or rape films or punishment films (where the girl gets beaten after she gets fucked) if you cannot establish a line of where no one will ever cross, then logic simply dictates that anything goes.
This is the rule of absolutes. Most porn producers do not believe in absolutes. There is no true right or wrong in the industry, if the other one produces controversial content, God bless him, but we won’t judge him. That’s the core issue and one that I hope is FORCED on the industry.
I in fact do believe in establishing a fine line of what is permissable and what won’t be. Pissing in a girls mouth is not art, period.
There has to be a difinitive line in this business and never crossed. Hollywood regulates itself constantly, but yet this industry – the adult industry – still feels it does not need to regulate anyone as it’s a violation of freedom of speech. LOL, it’s not, it’s called responsible quality control.
So, let the hate mail begin. 😉
From an obituary on Robert A Sobieszek
“Between leaving Eastman House and starting at LACMA, he served as an expert witness at the 1980 obscenity trial in Cincinnati involving an exhibition of photos by the late Robert Mapplethorpe. He and three other photography experts were asked to prove that Mapplethorpe’s homoerotic photos were art, not pornography. The jury ultimately agreed with the experts and acquitted Cincinnati’s Contemporary Arts Center and its director, Dennis Barrie.”
For sure Mapplethorps work included pissing in the mouth and anal fisting.
Sobieszek was considered a top photo curator and expert.
I’ve been reading this thread now for a couple of days reading opinions of people that have absolutely no fucking idea what they’re talking about. It must be nice for someone with 2 weeks worth of knowledge to post such incredible insight….well here’s something for you professors in porno blog land….Censorship and THE LAW are 2 things, not one.
Big Daddy I have actually over 5 yrs in the porn industry as a director and have shot for such companies as Vivid, Private, LFP, Playboy just to name a few. So my posts are very well timed and to the point.
I’ve never been shy about how I feel about this industry since I left last year to cross over into mainstream.
The industry needs to change period, end of story. Don’t like it? Live with it. If you cannot decide where the fine line is in this business you are one step away from crossing it. I keep it real, I keep it honest. You guys just don’t like it when I shine the light on your dark secrets and deeds.
Oh your correct I’m absolutely not part of your world
but you people are image/film makers and therefore
part of mine. The main difference is professional
image makers in the mainstream world work to
a different level. Sometimes you put out stuff thats
interesting but mostly its laughable, the amateurs getting
their kit off and posting on the net prove that your really
much of the same ability. Its just that amateurs are now
preferred and you lot will soon have to try and survive in
the real world, my world. Good luck at being a “civilian”
But don’t expect to be taken seriously as a professional
image maker.
Casperxxx. Dude, you’ve gatta be fucking joking me. 5 whole years in the business WOW!! and a director at that. OOOHHH WOW. I’m not going to get into a debate with you on how little you truely know about what your talking about.Until you’ve actually been in the business as a business man….shut the fuck up! Your one of the reasons that guys like me laugh at guys like you. 5 years?A director? If you were Jules Jordan then you would be able to talk with knowledge from running a company. My best guess is you failed as a director in the business and the only way for you to even feel like your still involved is to post and give your 2 cent opinion on sites like this. The mere fact that you took direct offence to my ealier post verifys you know you talk(or type) out of your ass. By the way….your 5 whole years….does this include the 3 or 4 you’ve been a screen name on gossip sites??
No one “fails” in this business, sex is sex. Stop being stupid.
I left the industry because there was no where else to go and to be honest, it was a situation where I had an opportunity to gain legitimate placement in Hollywood as a screenwriter/director.
I don’t nor am ashamed of my body of work, and believe me, my titles were pretty big and did well. But I got fed up with attitudes such as yours and others in this business that it was merely about never trying to re-invent the wheel and keep everything as it is/was.
I have had my personal run ins with Peter North, Steve Hirsch, Joy King and many more over creative differences and so why fight stupidity?
I simply made a choice to expand my life as a filmmaker and go beyond the adult world. I simply decided that I would rather shoot for the stars and not make it than shoot for the gutter and become successful. Savy?
My beef has always been that until there is more unified regulation in this business, until there is a solid UNION for workers both male and female and until there is acceptance for higher ideas, then I’ll struggle in LA as an indie filmmaker and writer and not worry about it.
I made my money, I’ve tasted the glory of being labled a porn director. But seriously, when you shoot the same sex scene over 300 times, well, you get kinda tired of it and I knew I wanted to tell REAL stories without relying on the need for sexual content to get it told.
I didn’t take offence to your post, I just called a spade a spade in YOUR case. You are a perfect example of why there MUST be an established line of what will be acceptable and what won’t be. Get over it.
Self censorship is a good thing. Again, why are you so freaked out by the mere notion of self censorship? Hollywood does it all of the time? There is some things that should not be tolorated – period. Don’t like it? Deal with it. That’s how I put it out.
let the hate begin. 🙂
Mr or in your case miss xxx. Get a life, stop with the self gratification to stoke your own ego. I would love to know your true credits. You directed successfully in this business. What were the titles?? I will make a public apology if you in fact are for real.NOT!! Your an overly opiniated idiot. This will be the last post from me to you on this or any other subject. Your just another shunned looser that was run out of the business for producing CRAP!!
Quote: “Forest, and Luca, let me explain my position that you both obviously don‚Äôt get. So I‚Äôll type slowly this time so you can better understand it.
This is NOT about child porn, it has everything to do… yadda yadda yadda…”
Dear casperxxx,
in case you didn’t notice: I did not comment on your position. Read my post again, please! And I neither wrote anything in favour of Paul Little / Max Hardcore, to defend his work or him as a person, nor criticised him. Because I don’t really care about the whole issue or your position on it!
Actually, I’m totally indifferent towards this whole “affair”, except for its entertainment value. It’s just another funny, amusing thing happening at the porn zoo to me.
But I DO care about your insulting, stupid, ludicrous and, most importantly, FALSE allegations that “most Europeans think that child porn is not harmful” and “believe that abusive and repulsive behaviour should be allowed to exist when it comes to adult films, including child porn”. You are accusing “most Europeans” (this means at least 50% of us) of endorsing and approving of the depiction of children and adolescents below the age of consent in sexual situations / acts with each other and / or adults. You are accusing over half of my friends and family (statistical probability) and me of supporting disgusting criminal acts and behaviour.
You can either try to back up and verify your assertions with solid data, provided by / from a reliable source, or you can admit that you’ve insulted millions of people (and me…) with baseless accusations, act like a man and apologize!
Here’s my advice: Go with the second option!
Stop deflecting and take responsibility for your actions / writings! People make mistakes – and people forgive! But mistakes become unforgivable when you deny that they ever happened or try to worm your way out of the consequences.
So, man up!
As to “typing slowly” so I can “understand better”, I think it’s nice that people (like you) hold on to the classics, especially to the good ones. I remember, I almost fell from my dinosaur laughing when I heard that quip for the first time…
See? I like the oldies, too!
Decision time!
Luca Eisenstein
My position stands. Actually it’s because of the culture of most europeans that America finds herself in the shape she’s in. Little by little this nation is becoming very european and that’s a dangerous thing. You (europeans) put up with and appease terorists just to be “more understanding” and tolerant. Sorry, you’ll never get an apology from me princess.
Dear casperxxx,
I specifically asked you to to supply evidence / data to back up and verify your assertions. And you can’t! All you can come up with is nonsensical blather about “terorists” (sic) and “culture”. Gornisht, oyser shmontses un bubkes!
Nice try, but you won’t get away with your weak attempts at deflecting from the subject. Substantiate your allegations or admit you’re wrong! There are no further options for you!
And, by the way, the proof is officially “in the pudding” that you in fact ARE uneducated, uninformed and stupid. If America was indeed becoming more and more “European”, according to your definition of this term, Paul Little wouldn’t even be in the legal difficulties he has to face at the moment! Basic logical thinking doesn’t seem to be a strong point of yours, does it?
As to your “cultural analysis”: It’s a fact that America has never been less influenced by (western) European culture or thinking in the last thirty to forty years than “she” is at the moment. The political and cultural gap between the two continents has never been as deep and wide, since the end of World War II, as it is currently. It’s self-evident! Rampant religious fanaticism, political isolationism and ridiculously exaggerated nationalism (with fascist tendencies and on the brink of paranoia) are only three of the reasons on the American side. Obscure fears of an American “world rule”, a strange sense of “moral superiority” and a natural aversion to war as a means of politics, deeply routed in the not-so-recent history of our continent, are three on the European side. There are a lot more interesting aspects to this situation, but I digress…
I won’t even begin to discuss the “Europeans put up with and appease terorists (sic again)” part of your post. Your baiting is as weak as your logic! Additionally, utter nonsense doesn’t merit an answer…
So without further ado: Again, verify and prove your assertions or admit you’re wrong!
Your “princess”,
Luca Eisenstein
P.S. I’m not surprised that you had to earn your living by filming basic human body functions for five years…
There’s one “to” too many in the first sentence!
Indifference is bliss!
Whatever…