From the Arizona Republic:
Teen prostitutes are traded like cattle and beaten like dogs, don’t keep their money and can be lured into the profession with sweet talk and designer handbags.
This warning comes from an unusual source: convicted pimp Antoin Thurman.
"I’ve realized I wouldn’t want to see my daughter, my mother or sister in this predicament I had these girls in," said Thurman, a Phoenix resident serving a three-year sentence in the Arizona Department of Corrections, ASPC-Douglas. "Not only did I mess up my life but I messed up their lives."
Thurman, 21, this week described in an educational video how he recruited girls at malls and clubs and lured them into selling their bodies.
The 20-minute video is the brainchild of Judge Lex Anderson of Lake Pleasant Justice Court. Anderson sought and received $42,000 from the Judicial Collection Enhancement Fund to do the project. Anderson has spearheaded other educational programs focusing on topics such as drinking and driving and domestic violence.
A case in his courtroom involving a teenage prostitute stirred Anderson’s interest and led to his discovery that child prostitution was not an aberration. It’s estimated 8,000 children in Arizona are victims of sexual exploitation.
I think that the prevalence of pimping in the USA is the result of making prostitution ilegal combined with lax and corrupt law enforcement. In most countries were prostitution is legal, violent pimps are much less common than in the USA. Whores simple turn them to the police. But consensual get me work “agent” pimps are common everywere. Ilegal inmigration however have made violent pimpimg more common. The catch is always the legal estatus of the prostitute. If prostitution is ilegal or the whore in question have a questionable migratory status, the State in form of the police and the judiciary becomes another enemy and a defacto ally of the pimp. That is why traffiking women around is so lucrative for pimps. That’s why a certain porn “agent” if often blamed of explointing the foreign whores he brings to the USA.
I am not sure if that is 100% correct because within some of the Nevada legal brothels (I’m not talking about the Bunnyranch, Dennis) there are still a good portion of girls with pimps. In fact, a few years back, it was hard to get a job in some unless brought in by a pimp.
tell me exactly how is Antoin Thurman different from Luke Ford? Is it cause Luke practices his trade after the Antoin’s of this world got the girls addicted to drugs and crushed their spirit & soul? Are they both not preying on weak and exploited women?
Both Antoin & Luke exploit girls with sweet talk and designer handbags. Luke promises promotion and career exposure, actually of the two,… me thinks Antoin the lesser of the two evils. At least he makes no bones about his evil. Luke practices his evil while denying his own culpability and while he points fingers at others for doing exactly what he himself does. Luke is a pimp and a hypocrite.
Antoin is a pimp.
The hate is strong Azamat!
Heather, I’m not familiar with the inner workings of the Nevada brothel system but in my opinion most of the girls that went into it had pimp problems long before they started working in the brothels. Also since prostitution is ilegal in most of the USA, being legal only in a few counties in Nevada and the numbers of brothels there is limited, many pimps do act as middlemen to get the girls work. In other countries with legal brothels most of the working girls do no have pimps. In fact they say, “our children or younger sisters are our pimps” not some useless and abusive male parasite.
Ric, hate i do not do. I am no fan of hypocrisy, but there is no hate in me nor in the tone of tenner of my soul. Just look to your right… you got sirrodney.com, intimatedvd.com, an ImLive.com error page, Adult dvd rental, booble [the scariest pseudo-tits on the planet] all being pimped by a self proclaimed ‘good jew’ {thats akin to military intelligence & other oxymorons}. Forget about hate, massive douchechills. If your a good man you dont prey on others, if your a man you dont bag on others for doing exactly what you do, unless of course you are completely fucked in the head. No hate, lots of laughs though.
Ric, hate i do not do. I am no fan of hypocrisy, but there is no hate in me nor in the tone of tenner of my soul. Just look to your right… you got sirrodney.com, intimatedvd.com, an ImLive.com error page, Adult dvd rental, booble [the scariest pseudo-tits on the planet] all being pimped by a self proclaimed ‘good jew’ {thats akin to military intelligence & other oxymorons}. Forget about hate, simply Massive Douchechills….
If your a good man you dont prey on others, if your a man you dont bag on others for doing exactly what you do, unless of course you are completely fucked in the head. No hate, lots of laughs though.
Azamat, you probably would make a better pimp then Luke. You certainly are more predatory.
Luke is a walking contradiction, but a pimp? I do not see him getting sex or money of the girls he interview. Well, the moralizing about the industry is a bit weird, specially since the industry pays his bills. But in the other had, this is a industry, who as seen by this outsider, seems allergic to critism. Just look at ADT. Both the talent, and the behind the scenes people. Any critic is usually met with and agry response and/or threats of legal action or fisical harm. I guess is the result of a understandable siegue mentality combined with low self esteem by many on the scene. But Luke is fun, is the only person that can talk both to porners and porn foes with inside knowlege and get away with it. That what makes is site so unique. I get that the fact that he is both atracted and repulsed by the industry, like many civilans, makes it interesting. He is not a fanboy.
ric, look to your left.
vanessa support your accusation, tell who i prey on?
Azamat, do you know what a stalker is? What is your purpose? Why don’t you tell us about your story, so that we can learn from your experience? Did you lose a daughter to the sex industry? Are you in love with Luke Ford, trying to save him? Did you recently meet or date a girl who told you she was forced into porn and abused against her own will? Please let us know what truly is inside your soul. And lastly: are you Luke Ford?
Luke is a vegetarian butcher that eats hamburgers.
excuse me for laughing my balls off. there is nothing personal here that is why i am able to cut to the quick
So you are avoiding answering any of my questions? You will not tell us any more about “the tone of tenner” of your soul?
whats to tell? I am not luke, I am pretty sickened by predators and hypocrites are mentally flaccid douchebags. What else? I would have arrived at my conclusions regardless of race, religion, occupation so it has no bearing.
The value of what is in my heart and the quality of my actions is solely driven by mo choices,… same goes for luke and he is public about it. the fact that he is a human car wreck and he adds a public forum to his intellectual impotence combined with his linguistic exhibitionisms affords me the opportunity to make his hand wringing public. he know what he does is wrong, and it is, yet he continues to do it publicly. dont build a 100 long race track hand me the keys to a race car then write me a ticket for speeding.
are you still lost?
I don’t know anything about Luke’s real life, outside what transpires from this site, but it’s not enough for me to be able to argue such far-reaching statements like “he is a human car wreck”. It would be like me trying to have a definitive opinion about who the man behind Azamat is from reading your few posts.
So, I can’t say anything much about Luke the person, but I can say something about his site and to be honest I don’t see the evil and exploitative side of which you speak. Luke doesn’t glamorize porn, on the contrary, in an effort to scratch away the glossy veneer he seems to go out of his way to make everybody who works in it look pretty bad. And that apparently is one of the many reasons why some people in porn hate Luke.
What I find of value on this site (morally speaking) is that there are many stories and especially interviews that you won’t be able to find anywhere else, which represent important documents; authentic first hand accounts of living a life in porn. Of how fucked up porn can be, or how fun it can be. What is important in this is that these are the stories as told by the people who actually lived them, true stories, as supposed to verbal diarrhea from some self-proclaimed moral preacher on a pulpit reading from the great book on human theory, superstition and ignorance.
If all girls planning of getting into porn would read through some of these stories, many of them might probably decide not to do porn. Logically, a young girl who wants to get into porn has her own (firm) ideas about what she is getting into and why. Those ideas are going to be based on what? Luke Ford’s website? Most young girls are not going to touch this site with a 10-ft. pole! It would be a blessing if they did!
Unfortunately the girls will base their ideas on what they have learned throughout their lives from the “good” and approved mainstream media. Television is pounding away at us 24/7 with images of super sexy and flawless women. An infinite number of websites, print publications like People Magazine, Teen Vogue, US Magazine and the myriad of idiotic “Women’s” fashion and beauty magazines glorify and glamorize youth, physical beauty and celebrity status to the exclusion of all else a pseudo-celebrity status that means approval by society and that can be obtained by looking hot and being sexy. And getting on camera. Or so we are taught…
The result: I’m going to college right now and as a professional whore I wouldn’t know how to dress more provocatively then the majority of the teenaged girls on campus. Maybe this is only a phenomenon on the wealthy Westside of LA. The student parking lots are filled with brand new cars that cost 30-40K and up… with no shortage of brand new Porsches and other exotic vehicles. It’s like a huge army of Paris Hiltons, professional grade Barbie dolls, ready to be consumed. But what about the rest of America, the girls who don‚Äôt come from rich families but want to emulate the Hilton life style? Will they be able to afford any of it while studying and working part time? Not really, unless, maybe for a while, they do modeling, dancing etc.
But, I’m getting side tracked. In my opinion, Luke’s site is healthy and informative. If he was working for Playboy, I wouldn‚Äôt rise to his moral defense, and I wouldn‚Äôt need to because he could be the biggest asshole on the planet and he still would be celebrated like a high priest in this town and nobody would care about what I have to say anyway. But lukeford.com? If Bill Margold didn‚Äôt hold the title I would say that Luke‚Äôs site is almost like the Salvation Army of porn.
I for example had an epiphany when I found out through this site that my then role model – Chloe Jones – had already been dead for years by the time I was still masturbating to her pictures. Her story humbled me and made me start being more realistic about the lifestyle I was emulating.
A few years later, and I still have no definitive opinion about the porn industry. There are good people and there are bad people. There are a large number of barely educated people in porn and there are a large number of women who come from abusive backgrounds. Whatever their stories and struggles are, their lives are only made worse by people like you – Amazat, who come to deliver messages of moral condemnation, vested by some imaginary authority derived from ignorance, prejudice and personal religious beliefs. All you can do is divide the world of porn (and sex work) into two simple categories: victims and abusers. Black and white. Good and evil.
These are the same people who throw somebody out of the temple because of an involvement in porn. The same people who condemn a church-goer for an involvement in porn. The same people who execute you for an involvement in porn (see: Iran). The same people who will fire you from a job because they find out you used to work in porn. All those fine, self-righteous and moral people who are so quick at condemning, preaching and turning away and perpetuating a state of marginalization – in which abuse and exploitation can go unchecked when it happens – instead of reaching out and offering respect, friendship and understanding.
Whatever. I‚Äôm sure it has all been said before and in better words. Just remember: “You don’t throw away a whole life just ’cause it’s banged up a little.”
Incidentally with all the priests molesting children out there, all the violent thugs terrorizing minorities, all the politicians robbing this country blind, why the hell would you deign to waste your time on somebody as “small-potatoes” as Luke Ford? Why not try to make a real difference in the real world instead of being such a sanctimonious twat?
correction: “lukeisback.com” instead of “lukeford.com”
Have you interviewed vanessa, Luke
or is vanessa really Luke Ford?
Pretty switched on I say.
Azamat: “Luke is vegetarian butcher who eats hamburgers”.
If I joined a porn forum that would be signature worthy.
Vanessa is right, Luke and to a point XPT, are the only porn related sites who doesn´t glamorize porn. If somebody want to do an informed choice to enter the industry that are the only webs available. The fun, the lunacy and the self-loathing of porn.
The moment I found this site I got hooked. To bad that most of the girls entering the industry do not like to read anything, much less this blog.
To Vanessa:
Words in quotes come from Vanessa. My reply below.
“What I find of value on this site (morally speaking) is that there are many stories and especially interviews that you won’t be able to find
anywhere else, which represent important documents; authentic first hand accounts of living a life in porn. Of how fucked up porn can be, or how fun it can be. What is important in this is that these are the stories as told by the people who actually lived them, true stories, as supposed to verbal diarrhea from some self-proclaimed moral preacher on a pulpit reading from the great book on human theory, superstition and ignorance.”
I don’t doubt that this is how you feel, you have stated this a number of times. IMO having a forum to vent only allows continued justification and rationalization of a series of really dysfunctional behaviors. don’t get me wrong, sex is beautiful, even magical at times. That beautiful, magical sex could happen between any two (consenting adult) people and even more than two, it is not sex that I have a problem with. It is exploitation that is a problem for me. If your in the business you know what I am talking about. There is no sex in the porn business, there are performances and far to frequently, chemically induced rape. It is wrong and just because you hang a label on your practice as criticism or exposure when what at the end of the day is simply a medium to hock DVDs they you are a pornographer, no matter how reluctant. The fact that luke labels himself as anything else is offensive to me, hence the vegetarian butcher eating hamburgers.
“If all girls planning of getting into porn would read through some of these stories, many of them might probably decide not to do porn.”
Yah, and if frogs had wings they wouldn’t bump their ass when they hopped. That is not what this forum is about. It is about luke paying his rent, and how he does so is by being a pornographer, no matter how critical he is of his competition, he is still a pornographer.
“Logically, a young girl who wants to get into porn has her own (firm) ideas about what she is getting into and why. Those ideas are going to be based on what? Luke Ford’s website? Most young girls are not going to touch this site with a 10-ft. pole! It would be a blessing if they did!”
I don’t know what others think. I have my hands full with what I think. Personally though, thinking that you know what others think is not healthy for anyone,… remember that chestnut that Lew Wasserman gave us ‘nobody knows nothing about nothing’. Lew was one of the most wealthy, most powerful men that Hollywood ever knew, yet the men that carried him to his final resting place did so for a paycheck.
“Unfortunately the girls will base their ideas on what they have learned throughout their lives from the “good” and approved mainstream media. Television is pounding away at us 24/7 with images of super sexy and flawless women. An infinite number of websites, print publications like People Magazine, Teen Vogue, US Magazine and the myriad of idiotic “Women’s” fashion and beauty magazines glorify and glamorize youth, physical beauty and celebrity status to the exclusion of all else a pseudo-celebrity status that means approval by society and that can be obtained by looking hot and being sexy.”
Really? Cause my TV as about 200 channels, no one is holding a gun to my head telling me to order pay preview porn, no one makes me watch ET or any-such crap. I chose to watch History Channel and lots of movies. And I am free to do so. I have never been effected on what is inside People Magazine cause I never cracked one open. Try it some day as you remember that water seeks its own level.
“And getting on camera. Or so we are taught…
The result: I’m going to college right now and as a professional whore I wouldn’t know how to dress more provocatively then the majority of the teenaged girls on campus. Maybe this is only a phenomenon on the wealthy Westside of LA.”
Actually sounds more like monkey see monkey do. Regardless of physical locality and economic status.
“The student parking lots are filled with brand new cars that cost 30-40K and up… with no shortage of brand new Porsches and other exotic vehicles. It’s like a huge army of Paris Hiltons, professional grade Barbie dolls, ready to be consumed.”
And if any of them had an original thought in their head they wouldn’t be mindlessly following the pack. What it sounds like here is you are not following the pack, but you are envious of that pack. I suggest that you alter that behavior, follow your own light, do what you gotta do, walk into the financial aid office and tell them that your doing all that you can to get the degree you want but you don’t want to suck dick to get where your going,… ask if they can help? You will have dozens of options, dozens. You will get your degree sooner, you will respect yourself along the way and your professors with attach to you for the obstacles that you have overcome, not who you surrendered to be. that’s just my 2 cents.
“But what about the rest of America, the girls who don’t come from rich families but want to emulate the Hilton life style? Will they be able to afford any of it while studying and working part time? Not really, unless, maybe for a while, they do modeling, dancing etc.
But, I’m getting side tracked.”
Yah you are. You and I don’t know the first thing about what others think. What you are writing about above is about you. Perhaps you could print this out and bring it to your shrink and together you’ll can decipher what it means to you. Personally, Paris Hilton and her legion of slack jawed materialistic twats can all go fuck themselves. I rather spent fleeting moments with a woman of structure and substance instead of weeks in the VIP of Hyde with Paris & pals. That you or anyone else idolizes that blows me away. Then again I remember Public Enemy (circa 1986ish) and I got that message many moons ago, perhaps you should give a listen.
“In my opinion, Luke’s site is healthy and informative.”
that’s where we diverge, I think lukes websites are simply pornography wrapped in a think layer of guilt. If the porn business is so distasteful then don’t be a part of it. But if your going to sit in the corner shitting all over yourself stop complaining about the smell. (your welcome Ric)
“If he was working for Playboy, I wouldn’t rise to his moral defense,”
And I would. Actually I wouldn’t know about it, but I respect Popeye not a guilt ridden Soon-Yi Previn humping Woody Allen. If what your doing is wrong, don’t do it.
“and I wouldn’t need to because he could be the biggest asshole on the planet and he still would be celebrated like a high priest in this town and nobody would care about what I have to say anyway. But lukeford.com? If Bill Margold didn’t hold the title I would say that Luke’s site is almost like the Salvation Army of porn.”
Okay.
“I for example had an epiphany when I found out through this site that my then role model РChloe Jones Рhad already been dead for years by the time I was still masturbating to her pictures. Her story humbled me and made me start being more realistic about the lifestyle I was emulating.
A few years later, and I still have no definitive opinion about the porn industry.”
I do. It hurts many, many people. It is predatory and really wrong. So I chose not to be a part of it. Luke came to these same conclusions, but the porno made his ding dong feel good so he built a bridge of rationalities and justifications so that he could do what he does. So I will bring him a depends diaper, and I will point at the vegetarian in the blood soaked apron while he eats his hamburger and I will laugh my sack off.
“There are good people and there are bad people. There are a large number of barely educated people in porn and there are a large number of women who come from abusive backgrounds.”
Good you know this. Why are you, a smart hard working and clearly conflicted person putting your rather sizable talents into such an emotional quagmire? You should be doing anything else, you could be helping the victims of the porn trade, rather than helping grow its bottom line.
“Whatever their stories and struggles are, their lives are only made worse by people like you РAmazat, who come to deliver messages of moral condemnation,”
I condemn no one. I condemn actions but not people. Luke is a joke to me, you and himself so I laugh. I never condemned anyone, perhaps you feel like what you do is wrong so you are attacking the messenger instead of dealing with the message. Simply of you feel guilty about being in porn you probably shouldn’t be in it. You wouldn’t engage me in this debate if you didn’t have issue with your choices, so while you face your concerns by looking at this site when it gets to real for you you bark at me cause I am holding a mirror up to your own writings. I am responsible for the mirror not the image in it. Before you attack me next time, decide what you are attacking; the mirror or the images in it.
“vested by some imaginary authority derived from ignorance, prejudice and personal religious beliefs. All you can do is divide the world of porn (and sex work) into two simple categories: victims and abusers. Black and white. Good and evil.”
You could not be more wrong. I see the industry as victims harming other victims. But once you know what you did or are doing is wrong, you should stop. Because in my opinion the only excuse for hanging around the porn industry is ignorance, once that ignorance is gone, and you still stick around then you are a predator and a willful, knowledgeable one, and to me that is real shitty. I don’t see right or wrong, I do see abuse and cruelty, can you deny the abuse and cruelty in the industry? Then why add to it? Even passively.
“These are the same people who throw somebody out of the temple because of an involvement in porn.”
If someone is preying on others they should not enjoy the benefits of brotherhood with those that find preying on others wrong. From the conversations that I had with rabbis, they usually kick jews out of temple for being in porn because it makes jews look bad, the predatory aspects don’t come into play at all unless they are hurting other jews. Find defense of that.
“The same people who condemn a church-goer for an involvement in porn. The same people who execute you for an involvement in porn (see: Iran). The same people who will fire you from a job because they find out you used to work in porn. All those fine, self-righteous and moral people who are so quick at condemning, preaching and turning away and perpetuating a state of marginalization Рin which abuse and exploitation can go unchecked when it happens Рinstead of reaching out and offering respect, friendship and understanding.
Whatever. I’m sure it has all been said before and in better words. Just remember: “You don’t throw away a whole life just ’cause it’s banged up a little.”
OooooooooooooKay.
“Incidentally with all the priests molesting children out there, all the violent thugs terrorizing minorities, all the politicians robbing this country blind, why the hell would you deign to waste your time on somebody as “small-potatoes” as Luke Ford? Why not try to make a real difference in the real world instead of being such a sanctimonious twat?”
Well thanks for staying on point, and not resulting to personal attacks. Seems like your best argument is that luke is the lesser of the many evils out there. Therefore we should ignore the fact that he is evil altogether. Seems like flawed logic to me.
My dear, what a lengthy and pointless fishing expedition you went on!
Just for entertainment value, the only point where you are right is that I am envious of teenage girls who drive around in new Porsches, because I really love driving fast cars (must be the boy in me) and it will be a few more years until I can afford my own;) Is there something wrong with a little materialism thrown in for good measure?
Other then that, don’t even try to guess what my life is like. I love sex work and I never had to do it for the money. I have never been exploited doing sex work. You on the other hand seem to be a victim of exploitation – I may be wrong, but from the way you write I am now almost convinced that you are in fact a woman who at some point was in porn and got burned. You sound traumatized like a rape victim. In addition, you show some signs of various personality disorders, which – I am sorry to say – will make my attempts at communicating with you very difficult, if not futile.
If we could put your personal issues aside for one moment (which sadly in your condition is asking for the impossible), and we could try to look at your arguments in a rational way there is really nothing that you say that is of any substance.
You are repeating your key assertion that porn is exploitation and that exploitation is wrong. While I agree that preying and exploitation is wrong I do not agree that porn is a synonym for abuse, preying and exploitation. Period.
There is nothing you can do or say that will ever change that fact.
You aren’t even willing to share your own personal experience (as an insider in porn who “chose not to be part of it”), because your experience – if you have any at all Рwill be anecdotal in nature and you know that the real professionals on this site will just place it in that context or worse, tear it to pieces.
The way to prevent exploitation and abuse in porn would be to accept sex work as a legitimate occupation and treat it by the same standards and rules that govern all industries in this country.
But as long as society’s view is dominated by irrational beliefs such as “porn is predatory and really wrong”, consensual sex on camera is “chemically induced rape” and porn is an industry of “victims harming other victims” (like in Israel) we won’t be going anywhere.
Lastly honey, “sex is beautiful, even magical at times”? Wake up and smell the roses. You are not 18, are you?
Vanessa
again, rather than debate the issues you attack the messenger. that speaks volumes.
actually, i said rather clearly; porn is not the problem. the images of people (consenting adult people that is) is not no problem, it is the dope pushing and abusive boyfriend/managers/pimps that drive the industry that is the problem. Than is what is the problem with porn, it is not the one-in-ten-thousand Nina Hartley’s its the 9,999 tiffinee baloney-wholes who dont have the mental capacity to offer informed consent about their activities in porn.
the fact that nothing i can do or say will change your mind also speaks of your position. me on the other hand i am always willing to learn, i dont have it all figured out and if someone can offer me data to sway my position, my position it will be changed. you on the other hand,… well you confessed flaw.
ya wanna shut me up, have AIM draw blood with an omnibus tox screen, show up dirty no workie. who will still be working? besides Nina?
sorry that your sex isn’t beautiful and occasionally magical, i used to be live you, simply masturbating into another’s body. there is no joy in that, no beauty and absolutely no magic. there is orgasmic release, but IMO it pales in comparison.
I would completely support the notion of a regulated and above the counter sex worker business, but it will never happen with the scumbags that are at the helm of the industry today. if your tight with luke he can fill you in on whos up to what, who pimps for who, whos washing whos cash, whos hooking, whos suppling overseas outfits with, well you dont wanna know. there is only one delusional person in this conversation and sweetie, if you cant tell who the sucker is at the table, then guess what its you.
Nearly everyone has some narcissistic traits. It’s possible to be arrogant, selfish, conceited, or out of touch without being a narcissist. The practical test, so far as I know, is that with normal people, no matter how difficult, you can get some improvements, at least temporarily, by saying, essentially, “Please have a heart.” This doesn’t work with narcissists; in fact, it usually makes things worse. [See discussion of the relationship between normal personality traits and personality disorders.]
It’s impossible to overemphasize the importance of narcissists’ lack of empathy. It colors everything about them. I have observed very closely some narcissists I’ve loved, and their inability to pay attention when someone else is talking is so striking that it has often seemed to me that they have neurological problems that affect their cognitive functioning. These are educated people with high IQs, who’ve had ordinary middle-class backgrounds and schooling, and their thinking is not only illogical but weird: with narcissists, you have to know them pretty well to understand their behavior. For instance, they always fill in their gaps (which make up just about the entirety of their visible life) with bits of behavior, ideas, tastes, opinions, etc., borrowed from someone else whom they regard as an authority. Their authoritative sources, as far as I know, are always people they’ve actually known, not something from a book, for instance, and narcissists’ opinions may actually come from someone you know, too, but who is not to you obviously an authority on the matter at hand, so narcissists can seem totally arbitrary, virtually random in their motivations and reasoning. They are evidently transfixed by a static fantasy image of themselves, like Narcissus gazing at his reflection, and this produces an odd kind of stillness and passivity. Because their inner life is so restricted and essentially dead, it doesn’t contain images of how to live a full life — these things are not important to them, they expect others to look after day-to-day chores, they resent wasting their specialness on common things, they don’t put their heart into their work (though they’ll tell you how many hours they put into it), they borrow their opinions and preferences and tastes from whomever strikes them as authoritative at the moment.
From my personal experience, and from what I’ve seen in the clinical literature, narcissists don’t talk about their inner life — memories, dreams, reflections — much at all. They rarely recount dreams. They seem not to make typical memory associations — i.e., in the way one thing leads to another, “That reminds me of something that happened when I was…of something I read…of something somebody said….” They don’t tell how they learned something about themselves or the world. They don’t share their thoughts or feelings or dreams. They don’t say, “I have an idea and need some help,” or “There’s something I’ve always wanted to do…did you ever want to do that?” They do not discuss how they’ve overcome difficulties they’ve encountered or continuing problems that they’re trying to solve (beyond trying to get someone else to do what they want). They often say that they don’t remember things from the past, such as childhood events, their schooldays or old friends, and it seems to me that they really don’t most of the time. Anyhow, for all these reasons, I’ve tried to refrain from speculating about (i.e., novelizing) what goes on in their heads. Writer John Cheever (who recorded having been diagnosed as a narcissist when he went to marriage counseling at his wife’s insistence) describes some of his persistent fantasy images — and, with Cheever, they’re very striking, as you’ll know if you’ve read any of his fiction; his characters and plots tend to be narcissistic (i.e., self-obsessed tunnel vision spiraling into nihilism), but his stories often contain memorably glorious set pieces or tableaux, such as the the hunt for the golden Easter egg in one of the Wapshot novels. Cheever also gives unself-conscious expression to the ways in which his obsessive preoccupation with himself (and his penis — sort of a magic wand in his mind) obstructed his ability to relate to his wife and children, obstructed even his ability to perceive them: to see what they looked like, to pay attention to what they said and did, though with Cheever everything is also soaked with the sorrows of gin. Alice Adams’s novel, Almost Perfect, also gives things from a narcissistic point of view in a way that I found convincing and credible, based on my personal experience of narcissistic individuals. A striking thing about narcissists that you’ll notice if you know them for a long time is that their ideas of themselves and the world don’t change with experience; the ones I’ve known have been stalled at a vision that came to them by the age of sixteen.
There are different theories of how narcissists are made. Some psychologists trace NPD to early infantile neglect or abuse, and some blame over-indulgence and indiscriminate praise by parents who don’t set limits on what’s acceptable from their children. Others say that NPD shows up in adolescence. Some say narcissists tend to peak around middle age and then mellow out. Others say that narcissists stay pretty much the same except they tend to depression as they get older and their grandiose fantasies are not supported, plus they’re not as good-looking as they used to be. The narcissists I’ve known have apparently always been “that way” and they get worse as they get older, with dramatic regression of their personas after the deaths of their parents and other personal authority figures who have previously exerted some control over the narcissists’ bad behavior. And, yes, chronic depression gets to be obvious at least by their forties but may have always been present. Depressed narcissists blame the world, of course, and not themselves for their personal disappointments.
Essentially, narcissists are unable or unwilling to trust either the world or other people to meet their needs. Perhaps they were born to parents unable to connect emotionally and, thus, as infants learned not to let another person be essential to them in any way. Perhaps NPD starts later, when intrusive or abusive parents make it dangerous for the child to accept other people’s opinions and valuations. Maybe it comes from a childhood environment of being treated like royalty or little gods. Whatever the case, narcissists have made the terrible choice not to love. In their imaginations, they are complete unto themselves, perfect and not in need of anything anyone else can give them. (NB: Narcissists do not count their real lives — i.e., what they do every day and the people they do it with — as worth anything.) Their lives are impoverished and sterile; the price they pay for their golden fantasies is high: they’ll never share a dream for two.
Now, it is possible to have a relatively smooth relationship with a narcissist, and it’s possible to maintain it for a long time. The first requirement for this, though, is distance: this simply cannot be done with a narcissist you live with. Given distance, or only transient and intermittent contact, you can get along with narcissists by treating them as infants: you give them whatever they want or need whenever they ask and do not expect any reciprocation at all, do not expect them to show the slightest interest in you or your life (or even in why you’re bothering with them at all), do not expect them to be able to do anything that you need or want, do not expect them to apologize or make amends or show any consideration for your feelings, do not expect them to take ordinary responsibility in any way. But note: they are not infants; infants develop and mature and require this kind of care for only a brief period, after which they are on the road to autonomy and looking after themselves, whereas narcissists never outgrow their demands for dedicated attention to their infantile needs 168 hours a week. Adult narcissists can be as demanding of your time and energy as little babies but without the gratification of their growing or learning anything from what they suck from you. Babies love you back, but adult narcissists are like vampires: they will take all you can give while giving nothing back, then curse you for running dry and discard you as a waste of their precious time.
It is also essential that you keep emotional distance from narcissists. They’re pretty good at maintaining a conventional persona in superficial associations with people who mean absolutely nothing to them, and they’ll flatter the hell out of you if you have something they can use or if, for some reason, they perceive you as an authority figure. That is, as long as they think you don’t count or they’re afraid of you, they’ll treat you well enough that you may mistake it for love. But, as soon as you try to get close to them, they’ll say that you are too demanding — and, if you ever say “I love you,” they’ll presume that you belong to them as a possession or an appendage, and treat you very very badly right away. The abrupt change from decent treatment to outright abuse is very shocking and bewildering, and it’s so contrary to normal experience that I was plenty old before I realized that it was actually my expression of affection that triggered the narcissists’ nasty reactions. Once they know you are emotionally attached to them, they expect to be able to use you like an appliance and shove you around like a piece of furniture. If you object, then they’ll say that obviously you don’t really love them or else you’d let them do whatever they want with you. If you should be so uppity as to express a mind and heart of your own, then they will cut you off — just like that, sometimes trashing you and all your friends on the way out the door. The narcissist will treat you just like a broken toy or tool or an unruly body part: “If thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off”. This means you.
So, yes, it’s possible to get along with narcissists, but it’s probably not worth bothering with. If family members are narcissists, you have my deep sympathy. If people you work with are narcissists, you will be wise to keep an eye on them, if just for your own protection, because they don’t think very well, no matter what their IQs, they feel that the rules (of anything) don’t apply to them, and they will always cut corners and cheat wherever they think they can get away with it, not to mention alienating co-workers, clients, and customers by their arrogance, lies, malice, and off-the-wall griping. Narcissists are threatened and enraged by trivial disagreements, mistakes, and misunderstandings, plus they have evil mouths and will say ANYTHING, so if you continue to live or work with narcissists, expect to have to clean up after them, expect to lose friends over them, expect big trouble sooner or later.
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Narcissistic Personality Disorder – DSM IV Criteria
A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
(1) has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
(2) is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
(3) believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
(4) requires excessive admiration
(5) has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
(6) is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
(7) lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
(8) is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
(9) shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes
I’m so sick of this kind of xpt carry on. Honestly who gives a fuck outside your egos?
Id really like to see if anyone in this business has any other talent and positive ones at that, we all know you can slag each other off ad nauseous with the skill of a sword fighter, but what else can you do?
Post some links if your a poet, painter, photographer, actor, dancer,
artist, film maker, dressmaker, designer what ever. Even if its terrible I would like to see.
streetphotoman, you are right. These carry ons don’t lead to anything. Mea culpa. While I believe that ideas, opinions and discussions are important, I have to admit that blogs seem to have an inherent limitation and in the end are proving not to be a satisfying way to contribute anything meaningful. I wanted to present a noble defense of Luke Ford and instead have accomplished nothing.
Anyway, I’ve told a bit of my story so far, I’m honored to have made it into Luke’s archives as just another tiny piece of a big puzzle, (https://www.lukeisback.com/?p=39 https://www.lukeisback.com/archives/updates/070319.htm) but ultimately streetphotoman is right: Who really cares?
Interesting life vanessa. I think Luke’s work will be referenced by historians of human sexuality in the future. I’m glad he eventually got a camcorder. Just hope he looks into the problems of archiving for the future.
Stuff deteriorates !
Vanessa, might you write a post on exhibitionism? Because reading it in between the lines left some to the imagination.
Nevertheless, YOUR post where YOU reference a link to YOUR email about YOU was also very telling.
Please do elaborate. 😉
The question is Azamat what can YOU do
other than “get at” people?
If I were vanessa or any other women offering a sex service Id be seriously concerned by someone like you.
streetphotoman, i’m not following you. i am not a john nor am i a pimp, so why would her occupation be of consequence?
perhaps my cunning tongue is a bit to coy. i was attempting to derive a correlation between her long post about narcissism followed up by her post from her about her to talk about her.
as an added bonus her post of 2042 words was her follow up to a post that she started with the words “My dear, what a lengthy and pointless fishing expedition you went on!”. Not-for-fuggin-nuthin I couldn’t have scripted it better myself. So, Thanks Vanessa
Exhibitionism fall under the general category of paraphilias, “abnormal or unnatural attraction.” Exhibitionism involves exposing one’s genitals or sexual organs to a stranger. It is a sexual disorder. While often joked about, in reality, exhibitionism is a very serious behavior that can be frightening to the victim. These patients are typically male while their victims are female adults or children, usually unsuspecting strangers.
Exhibitionism involves nonconsenting persons. Sometimes the exhibitionist masturbates while exposing himself or herself, but makes no further attempt at sexual activity with the stranger. An exhibitionist is not seeking physical contact and will not commit rape, although some rapists may show signs of exhibitionism as well. An exhibitionist is sexually aroused by the shock or surprise of the victim. Exhibitionist behavior frequently will occur around times of stress or when the patient has free time (Morrison, 1995).
Symptoms
The key features of true exhibitionism are:
– There is sexual arousal directly related to the shock
– The victim is unwilling
– No further sexual contact is desired
Clinical diagnosis is made if the patient:
– Repeatedly over the course of at least six months expresses or exhibits intense sexual fantasies or behavior centering around genital self-exposure to an unsuspecting stranger
– Experiences significant impairment in work, social or personal functioning as a result
(American Psychiatric Association, 1994; Morrison, 1995)
Exhibitionism is the most common form of sexual deviation to come into conflict with the law in Western society. Nearly all of those arrested for exhibitionism are men; the disorder, if it exists at all in women, is seldom evident. Some experts suggest that female exhibitionism is not uncommon, but is not identified as deviant behaviour because there are socially acceptable ways for women to display their bodies. Female exhibitionists may seek employment where the condition can be exploited, such as topless dancing, although most people in such jobs are not exhibitionists.
(Encyclopaedia Britannica)
http://uk.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUKL1119370320070612?feedType=RSS
Apparently Sir Stephen Richards was found not guilty, however after his acquittal
two women contacted the police to claim that he exposed himself
to them separately on the same route.
From the Daily Mail.