2/17/00

I meet Frank Thring who tells me about his new series for LFP.

Frank: "It's nasty. It's got pissing in it. It's got lots of anal. We'll start of shooting in Eastern Europe, Southern California and Venezuela."

Rob: "You get to shoot new girls. "

Frank: "All the time."

Rob: "We get to shoot the same girls over and over again."

Frank: "What bugs me... I don't know how you handle this. But US girls are obsessed over, 'who's the boy?' Can I use my boyfriend? It drives me nuts."

Rob: "Yeah, even today. I was paying her her rate and they were complaining about doing it outside. Hey, I'm paying you your rate. I'm shooting the movie. That's what I need. I'm not making you shoot outside because I am a scumbag."

Frank: "I am an old fashioned director. I say to a girl, I'm happy to pay you what you want. This is the scene. I want it this way. I decide who you work with. If you don't like the guy so much, then act. That's what the bloody job is about.

"I've never known a girl in Europe say 'who's the boy?' We don't stand for that kind of nonsense.

"I've been shooting video for 17 years. I began shooting for Electric Blue in Britain... The first X-rated I did was in 1987 for VCA. 'Blame It On The Heat,' which was considered a classic (a feature starring Tracey Adams before she got too fat) for a few years until other movies superceded it. Then I shot for In-Tropics and various companies then I shot Anal Academy for Private. I've shot about 250 scenes for them...

"I shoot the Pirate series for Private. It's dressed up sex, silk, stockings and heels with a little bit of whipping. I'd like to put more of that in, and I do, but they edit it out.

"You just mentioned Gloria Leonard. Gloria is difficult. They ask Gloria, back in Barcelona [the headquarters of Private], what is acceptable in America and she always plays it incredibly conservatively. I see a lot of companies getting away with a lot more. I see Andrew Blake getting away with a lot more. Private only does the one edit, which I think is a mistake. They don't edit for the different markets. Naturally, they go for the more conservative edit instead of being a bit wilder for Germany... People see a Private tape and think 'I bet it is nastier if I get it in Europe.' It's not.

"That doesn't mean that we don't sometime shoot it. If a scene is going well... I know Woodman has shot the odd pissing scene. I've shot all kinds of things going inside girls' pussies and arses. If a girl wants to do it and the scene is just going that way. Let if flow... But they tend to cut stuff out. And she has an obsession about guys and girls tied up. Apparently, in America, you can never have sex with a person tied up.

"This seems to be nonsense to me in a sex fetish movie where sometimes three girls abusing a guy is perverse and hot sex... I'm not into rape at all. Pierre Woodman likes the dominant male. He likes rape scenes. His famous movie The Tower lost 45 minutes in the States because he had two very strong rape scenes... The scene was just a normal sex scene but because it had aggressive sex, it was genuine rape, then they cut them out. I think even the beginning was altered in America because his famous beginning is an eye opener. The couple have sex on the terrace... Then he strangles her and throws her over. Which, for American audiences, a bit much.

"I'd sooner have three girls on one guy than three guys on one girl. I tend to not shoot that kind of sex. I'm more famous for introducing the facial cumshot to Private... I've always felt that if a guy is going to cum anywhere it should be in the face. I've never done it anywhere else in over a thousand sex scenes.

"So in America at the moment I have 'Eurobabes' for Metro, my 'Double Anal Club' for Xplor Media, possibly a new Hustler series, a Pirate series for Private, and Stacked with Pleasure. And a new one which is in this month's AVN and gets four stars, is 'Euro Gangbangers' which is a new idea. We try to make each gangbang a story, so that the characters slowly come in and do the girl, and they don't all leap on her at once. And there's three gangbangs in one program, each a little story in itself. I think it is a much more interesting way of doing it, rather than 'here's the bitch, and let's all do her together.'

"I will in due course have my own website... At one stage I was going to do it in connection with Sylvia Saint, but Sylvia is going to set up her own website just for her, because I think she is slowly going out of the business. And will concentrate on the web, like many girls...

"I'd be interested to know if any fans out there like the Pirate series and if so, what they like about it? I'm very self-critical because it can be criticized as vanilla sex, in the sense that it is lush. It's Betacam, it's glossy. It's silk stockings and strong makeup... But sometimes I think we get it right. If they'd like to see it stronger, tell them it is because I don't cut it. Private does. We're now up to Volume 16.

"The first 12 were basically loops. Each scene was a fetish in itself. But since number 12 they have become feature movies in themselves. My next one is called 'The Club'. Shot in Prague, it's about a guy who meets a mysterious lady on the street and follows her to a very kinky fetish club and slowly gets drawn into a world of fetishism until the end he becomes her slave."

Luke: "In America they divide between fetish and regular hardcore tapes. This goes with regular tapes."

Frank: "I think that is a mistake. I had this bitter dispute, in the sense of two letters, with AVN. I wrote a private letter to Mark Logan, not for publication, saying that he'd criticized one of my programs for the wrong reason. I felt that he didn't understand what I was trying to do. He then published that without my permission... Then Mark Logan then used that letter to jump off onto his own pet worries. One of which seemed to be that he thought that fetish stuff should be stronger. He quoted the Pain series from Holland Germany as an example of the way the industry should go. Well, short of being a snuff movie, you can't go any stronger than Pain.

"Well, if he gets off on watching blood run down ladies bodies and seeing 2000 needles in her vagina, I'm delighted for him. But that isn't what Pirate's about, that isn't what Private's about and it isn't what I'm about. And in any event, I'd call that an S&M movie, not a true fetish movie.

"I then put in a letter saying that as far as I understood it, many fetishists do not like to see hardcore sex mixed with their subject. He disagreed... I never replied to him, but my information came from Dian Hanson, who edits Leg Show magazine, and her readers constantly write in that they do not like to see, necessarily, for example... If a guy is worshipping a girl's foot, they don't then want to see that guy stick it in...

"I thought 'Screw you AVN.' Because they then said that your stuff looks very nice, looks lovely, but it is still vanilla sex. Well, I reviewed after that, all my movies, and I still think there is a lot of material in there for a fetishist to get off. We try, with slow loving angles up the legs, silk stockings, we try to make it exciting for them. Of course I have to put the f---ing in. Of course for Private I have to put the anal in, and they get a facial cumshot. And if a sex scene is going to last 15 minutes, you're only going to have so much space... Mark Logan can talk about editorial control...but when you're controlled by a big video company, they have a way that they want their movies to look. And you have look within their conventions.

"The [main] market for Pirate is in Germany... It's a huge seller there. The Germans always like a big of kinky sex, particularly if it has thigh boots on.

"I'd also like to know if the fans would like to see Pirate and Private go stronger. In the United States there is this move to do more pissing. Hustler especially is getting into water sports. And now they are getting into water sports on people. Peeing on the face... Do the fans like that?

"I'm probably the last human being not to have a computer. But I will get one and get on to the web in the next few months.

"I shot two Pirate movies in Melbourne... Your [Australia] Immigration are so tricky. It got farcical in the end. I planned to take the best looking bunch of Hungarian girls that I had ever put together for a movie [in 1998]. Unfortunately your Immigration policies have now changed at embassies around the world. They now require three weeks to clear foreigners... It used to be just a day... We got every bit of information we could for these girls...

"And the good ol' Australian government kept us waiting for three weeks and then rejected everybody for different reasons. They maintained that these girls were going to try to find husbands down there...

"I was then left with no one to take. Within a day, I managed to find three nice girls out of London. They of course get an automatic visa. It seems that any citizen under 30 gets immediately pounced on by Australian customs. To the point where they check your toothpaste. In the end, they took two of the three girls, and interviewed them. And the girls had been told by me not to take any kinky lingerie, any high heels, anything that might possibly mislead immigration. But they both had, quite rightly, their AIDS tests with them. This upset immigration very much, that people might be going around the world with AIDS tests. And these two girls got put back on the next plane for a lovely 60-hour flight back to Britain.

"And I was left in Australia with one girl to do a movie and four horny Hungarian boys. Luckily, in South Australia at least, prostitution is legal. So I had to go around the bordellos and find three or four girls who were willing to work. And I had to teach them how to work in front of a camera.

"I hope New Zealand is more kind to us."

Luke: "Do you shoot gay porn?"

Frank: "Not at all. I have no desire to. In all my years, I've seen just about everything you can witness...including animal sex. But the one thing that still shocks me most is watching guys do one another. For some reason, it seems so odd to me. It throws me off balance. I can't get used to it. When I look at men with men, even in West Hollywood where they walk around in public holding hands and kissing, I just find it strange. I want to laugh at it or giggle or just put my hand on my mouth in shock."

Luke: "How do the women feel, those who do these rape scenes for Pierre Woodman?"

Frank: "I just worked with an American girl who'd come back from Italy. And she said, 'I did a great scene in Italy. It was a rape scene. The guys abused me. They threw me down on the sand. My hair was all dirty. And they just held me down and f---ed me. And I loved it. I can never do this in America.' To be that wild and dramatic and realistic. I think some girls can get off on macho sex. Personally, I don't like shooting it, particularly if there is any chance of hurting the girl. But if you discuss it with the model, and she's willing to do it, it's entirely up to her.

"Obviously you know better than me about this recent stuff about Rough Sex and Anabolic. I think strong sex is acceptable if the girl is willing to do it. The trouble with Rough Sex is that if every scene is like that, and you have a whole tape of girls having their heads thrust down toilets, or crawling across the floor, or whipped hard, it's just focusing the mind on that one action. If you're telling a feature story that happens to involve a character getting raped, than that is different."

Luke: "I sometimes feel sorry for those girls in the Private productions."

Frank: "In what way? I've never noticed a Private girl getting knocked around. It is much less hard than that of Christoph [Clark, for Evil Angel in America], with his four fingers in the arse, opening it up. It's fine. I'm sure the girls don't mind. He pays them well. He's a charming man and a good stud. But I would've thought that physically that is more abusive and dangerous than one cock in a good strong f---.

"Pierre likes to control the scene and everybody in the scene. A criticism of Pierre Woodman movies is that they look beautiful but the sex is cold. I like to be an uncle figure to the girls and to my team. And I like to think that they are happy doing the sex, and I think that sometimes comes over...

"In my 18-year career, I only had one girl who cried on camera. And I stopped the scene. She also came from Pierre Woodman. I was very unhappy that she seemed uncomfortable.

"For a time Pierre used girls from Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania. They claim to be Russian. His wife [Tanya Russoff] claims to be Russian but she's not. She's Lithuanian. Pierre had two agencies up there that worked with him and they were basically fashion agencies, which was why the girls were so beautiful. What he tended to do was to take them to places like Bali, and then, when they were there, he'd say, 'I can't do much fashion work with you. But we have a movie to shoot, and I think you better do it, because how are you going to get home otherwise?' So they would do the scenes. That's a kind of coercion and I'm not into that.

"But many of them enjoyed the work and they certainly enjoyed the money. But there was this one particular girl who'd gone on the Bali movie that he did. And then she was encouraged to come down to Cannes for the film festival. She was told it was just for publicity. She came down and was told that while she was there she had to do at least one sex scene. Pierre had shot her and they [Private] wanted me to use her. She cried as soon as the scene started and I stopped it because I couldn't handle it. It made me uncomfortable but he seems to be able to cope with that.

"His latest thing is to advertise in Eastern Europe for girls to come to Paris for fashion work. And he picks out the really pretty ones. And they end up in Paris. And he says, 'You're beautiful and I'd love to shoot you, but you're not quite tall enough for fashion. However, I do have this X-rated stuff to do and it pays very good, and would you like to do that?' And eight out of ten say yes. Then they go do it and take the consequence and take the money. And the ones who say no are allowed to go home. There is no coercion in that case.

"But it is a cunning way of doing it. I'd much prefer to go straight to an agent who specializes in X-rated and say 'Do you have any new girls?' I do not want a girl turning up and feeling uncomfortable around my set. It doesn't seem to worry him. And that way he's managed to find some stunning girls who are exclusive to him. I just don't think it is a good practice.

"His other thing of course is his famous method of getting them ready for a scene, which a lot of girls object to... Some girls walk off the set. He uses this special cream he gets in France which numbs the asshole, thus he feels he gets a better anal scene because they can take a good pounding. He believes it is more comfortable for the girls and it gives him 30 minutes to work his fingers up their ass. I don't have the time for that. I'm no angel. I've done the odd blowjob scene and a very occassional sex scene in my films and I also date the girls occassionally. But they don't have to f--- me to work with me. And they don't have to have my fingers up their ass for 30 minutes just to work with me. And with him they most certainly do. Of course, his Casting Call series shows this well.

"I am possibly his biggest fan of his movies and especially of his stills. I really like his photo stills for Private photo magazine over the years... However as a human being, I think he's the biggest piece of s--- on the face of the planet. Our rivalry is legendary. I don't think he'd say the same thing about me when it comes to movies because he's so arrogant.

"Since The Pyramid, I think he has gone downhill fast. And I was not the biggest fan of Tatianna.

"Pierre is going to be shooting a lot for Hustler and stopping work for Private over the next two years. And his exact words to me at the show in Las Vegas was that 'Private are a bunch of s---s.'"

Luke: "What happened?"

Frank: "Because slowly he has been given less and less work and smaller and smaller budgets. Indeed, this has been a new policy of Private, to reduce budgets and see where the wastage was. Because I think Mr. Woodman has made himself rich on the back of Private. And he'd reached a point where he was paid per photo set. According to how many he delivered. Of course to Pierre it was an advantage to deliver 60 photo sets and get paid a $250,000 rather than deliver two or three... He'd be constantly told, 'We don't need more than five,' and he'd constantly come back with twenty. Partly because he's a workaholic... He was becoming the Pierre Woodman company and they disliked that intensely and they slowly managed to weed him out of that. He of course has missed making so much money and is delighted to have done a deal with Hustler to shoot stills and video for them. This in turn has upset Berthe Milton very much. Because Pierre is under contract..."

Luke: "How would you describe Berthe Milton?"

Frank: "Berthe is a brilliant businessman, although some of that is due to luck. He's extremely shy and introverted. He'd probably agree that his biggest weakness is a lack of communication and trust. He's been hurt many times in the past, going back to his father, who hardly had a lot of time for his son. And left him a rather lonely child. And if you're a lonely child, you grow up a little bit cold and emotionally scarred by it. He thus doesn't trust those around him and many times has been badly hurt by the people he thought he could trust, letting him down. It's made him a bit paranoid.

"His business sense is brilliant. He admits he could be selling tomatos or potatos. It doesn't have to be porn. He was a stockbroker before he got into this business. He was lucky that his father had so many international contacts for his Private photo magazine. And Berthe has built on that brilliantly.

"He's not an easy man to get close to. Now he has so many interests...that the video and magazine sides are just one part of Private. And all of us who used to see him a lot don't see him very much. And he's happy with that, to leave it to general managers and other people.

"The man who keeps the video and magazine side rolling along is a shadowy figure, but an important one. Javier Sanchez. Twenty years ago, he was the Art Director for Private photo magazine.

"My own problem with Private is that they love new ideas. Which is a good thing on the one hand and a bad thing on the other. Because most video companies, if you give them good movies, they constantly are happy with you. Stick your name out there, reward you, give you more work, build you up... Private is always tempted by the latest new idea or innovation. Thus currently, Antonio Adamo, their new director... Antonio came from nowhere. They made a deal with Penthouse and they are giving him the Penthouse movies to shoot. They're getting good reviews in Europe but so far average marks here. I think there's a big risk in giving it all to a new director.

"That may sound like sour grapes but it isn't. It's simply that if you've been with them a long time, they don't say 'Let's give you a ton of work.' They're always looking for the latest director, latest new trend, latest technology... And that makes you nervous about giving your total loyalty to Private, because you never know from one month to the next whether you are the flavor of the month or not. And everybody who works for the company laughs, because you're in favor one month and out of favor the next.

"Whereas in America, if you make classy movies, most video companies will pat you on the back and build up the old ego. With Private, don't ever expect any ego building..."

Luke: "How has the company changed since going public?"

Frank: "It has changed a lot. I liked the old days in Stockholm when it was just Bert and a handful of people in the office... Morton Hagen, who was the sales manager... Aside from them, I've seen everybody in the company get fired or change, which shows you how well they keep their staff. People just seem to come and go. Private is probably the worst company I've ever met just communicating with themselves. They love the latest gimmicks. They have faxes, emails, mobile phones and every piece of communication equipment known to man but nobody in the company ever talks to one another.

"So, for example, as in last year, I can easily find myself planning stuff for the Cannes Film Festival and finding that the publicity manager wasn't talking to the marketing manager who wasn't talking to the general manager. I don't know what Bert knew. No one person seems to coordinate or keep everybody in touch. They all seem to do their own thing. They've gotten so big now they don't think to tell the person in the office next door.

"I like the old days better. The budgets were larger then... Sometimes it was useful and sometimes they wasted money badly as Berthe knows."

Luke: "They spent a million dollars on Operation Sex Siege?"

Frank: "The famous fauxpas...which rates as the most expensive sex film every made...at anything from one-and-a-half to five million dollars, depending on who you want to believe. The reason was that the head of production, Peter Backman, who was with Private from their third movie on until then... Peter was obsessed with ships, with a bit of Spieldbergian complex... He convinced Berthe that they could buy a ship, fit it out and take it around all the major ports of Europe, getting the other major video companies to come on board, thus paying the costs of the ship. They could take 40-50 girls, and move into each port around Europe, and have a good marketing exercise.

"It sounded great in theory but in practice they bought an old rotting hulk of a ferry at short notice before the Cannes Film Festival and as soon as the other video companies looked at it, they said, 'We're not taking space on this thing.' And they wanted their money back. That left Private to go ahead.

"Then they discovered that if you don't, in advance, get authority to enter different ports around the world, you cannot enter. Plus the fact, that in some cases such as Cannes, the ship was too big to get into the harbor anyway. So you had to get the press in little boats to come out to visit the ship.

"Another problem is feeding people on a big ship... They didn't think all of us this through. Peter also had a habit of telling Berthe that everything was great, when in fact it wasn't quite so rosy. Ibetha (Mediterranean island, part of Spain) turned them down. The port of Amsterdam refused to admit it. Cannes kicked them out...

"They pulled off the movie. Nic Cramer shot it. They wasted money there. It was shot American style. They ordered 25 HMI lights and never used more than six on any single day. They cost about $250 a day to rent... It took a year to edit... In the end they had to sell the ship off at a loss.

"Since then, Berthe fired Peter Backman and tightened up the company."

Frank says that until 1990, most porn girls came from France or Germany. Since then, Hungary.

Frank: "The Hungarian girls have a different attitude to porn, which some people like... They seem to have the attitude that you eat, you sleep, you s--- and you f---. It's just something you have to do in life and it is nothing to get worked up about. So they don't give you the passion of a French or Italian girl, but equally they don't give you the passion or emotion or hysterics of a French girl, who, if she had an argument with her boyfriend the night before, gives you a difficult scene. Or she could give you a great scene. They're just very placid, very unbothered by things. Just get on and do it."